12v Battery Died

[Susan]

My White FFEV finally succumbed to having the 12v battery die to join the others.

Car status points:

1. I have only used a level 2 charger since purchasing the car. I had it installed immediately since I was buying 2 of them.
2. I had the SSN recall upgrade performed last week.
3. When leaving the car AFTER the recall upgrade I was mildly shocked when I closed the car door after turning the car off. It was like one of those static electricity shocks we have all gotten while on a carpet.
4. I drove the car on Saturday and it was fully charged. No problems.
5. I parked the car and it sat for 24 hours. I went to move it back into the driveway on Sun and it was dead.
6. Called roadside assistance who arrived this morning as agreed to take it to the dealer. I had to remind the towing company that the car requires a flatbed.
7. The towing company charged the 12v and said I could drive it to the dealer and I declined. I want the drama of the tow to make a point.
8. The dealer called me once the car arrived and I explained all that I learned from the forum (without mentioning the forum) and told him that he must research this issue completely. I explained in many cases the battery is replaced however, why did I get a shock and why was it after the upgrade? There might not be a coincidence but I had to mention it.

Note: The blue FFEV (my other car) was upgraded the day after the white one. So far no shock but the blue and white cars are completely out of sync with recalls. I bought them 1 week apart. The blue car cannot be registered to date with the mobile app. The car error reports that it is registered to another user. Countless Ford calls and conversations. Countless resets, reprogrammings and repeat conversations. This is an entirely different thread.

I am so glad I leased these cars. Will update with what is sure to be a useless and aggravating situation. This all coming from an extremely upbeat and positive person by nature. Hey I hope I am wrong.

 

[davideos]

I find the dead 12V battery issue kind of interesting. I've done a few meansurements on my battery a few times while the car is completely off, while the car is sitting after I've turned it off but the accessories are still running, and while the car was on. I didn't record the voltages, but everything seemed rather normal. Lead Acid batteries are rather resilient, which is why they are used in cars, but don't let them go below 10.5V else damage begins to occur. You can also over charge them to the point they get too hot. I've done this with a gel cell once, and it lasted about 2 months afterward.

Unless something very odd is happening to these batteries...allowed to go too low or too high, I would simply have to say that the batteries are defective...all from the same batch? I don't recall specifically, but it seemed there was someone who reported a fix for this issue, but it was more related to being plugged in for 2 days. Was this part of one of the recalls? Maybe I'll look into a data logger to see what it does over the course of a day of use and a night of charging.

The thing about 12V car batteries, if your load on it is very small, you won't know it is going bad on you until it actually dies. In an ICE car, you sometime get an indication of failure when you are cranking the engine. But with the electric car, provided there is just enough voltage and capacity to start the high voltage DC to low voltage DC Lead acid charger, everything will seem fine. But as soon as the battery drops below that threashold, the car simply will not show any signs of life. A "jump" can fix the issue temporarity, but at this point, the battery is probably a gonner as it no longer has any capacity to store a charge....unless something in the car is sinking current from the battery overnight.

Like I said, this is interesting.

 

[Astrand1]

I just bought my car Friday afternoon and I had them check the 12v battery TSB and they said everything was ok. But as I type this I'm kinda thinking something was weird. When I went to look at the car and test drive on wed afternoon it was parked in front plugged into the charger and the hood was up. Also the plastic cover that goes over battery was off. It occurs to me that likely the battery was dead and they jumped it and then put it on the charger to hopefully get it back to normal. Now I checked the battery last nite and the voltages seem ok but the little status light on the battery is red so that causes me some concern. I'm supposed to go back to dealer in a few days for some small fixes and I'm gonna have them load test it again and see if I can just have it replaced. Better safe than sorry.

 

[davideos]

If the battery retains a charge and load tests ok, then you are probably ok. I'll have to find the TSB and see what it says. I checked my battery back when I had a SSN issue thinking that the two issues were related, but the battery checked out fine. Well over 12V at rest and then up to 13.5 and above when the car was on. I've never had too much trouble with car batteries other than that they die alomst 36months later to the day!

My belief now is that the batteries they are putting in new cars these days is like the tires they put on...they wear out quickly. My wife's 2010 Ford Flex had its battery replaced before its time. That isn't enough data to establish a trend, but I think this might be the issue. JMHO.

 

[Susan]

Just a quick update. The dealer called yesterday to say they have to call someone in to look at the car. They are not familiar with the situation and at first did not understand why they had it since the charge had it running. I reiterated that I received a shock when I exited the car when I touched the outside of the door to close it. The rep stated that happens all of the time and is nothing to concern myself with. Now I do not know about you but I do not recall ever receiving a shock when using any of my cars. I reminded him that I have an electric car that on a full charge in the primary battery had the 12v battery just die so where is the 12v draining to? Of course I looked his topic up and found that getting a shock can be common so I consider myself lucky so far. My senses are up now and am not comfortable.

 

[davideos]

I've been shocked plenty of times when touching a car. If the environment is right, it can easily happen. It has been awhile, but there was a time I was getting zapped by my ford explorer often. Could have been a combination of my shoes and the dryness of the air. Usually I'd be zapped on approach, but sometimes when getting out of the car, standing on the ground, and then shutting the door....zap. And yes, it is the same type of shock as your carpet would give.
For any other type of shock that isn't static electricity related you would need a complete path. For instance, a shock from your 12v battery, in addition to your hand on the door, you will need another part of your body on the opposing battery terminal. Same thing if it were your high voltage battery. You need access to both sides of your battery on different parts of your body to push the flow of electricity to shock you.
Static electricity works differently as electrons jump from one surface to another due to their charge difference. Tires are suppose to bleed static buildup from your car to ground, but since they aren't good conductors, there can still be a buildup by the time you've exited your car a closed the door. When I used to get shocked offer with my explorer, I would close the door with the back of my hand as the shock from car to back of hand didn't hurt.

Anyway, hopefully it is just static.
Regards,
David

 

[Susan]

Thank you for your patience with the static/shock issue. I appreciate the information very much!

I picked the white car up this evening. The service rep claimed that the battery was weak and no good after testing it so it was replaced. Since the car only has 1,370mi on it since picking it up in August he was attempting to attribute the problem to lack of use. My daily commute is short and was told that I do not drive the car enough to charge the 12v battery. I have to say that my driving pattern is now 17 yrs old and this is the first time I have had this experience. I find that hard to believe.

Now for the interesting part.... he said that the car had errors and needed a software update. Directly from the invoice: "TSB 13-9-19 Reprogram PCM and appropriate modules. Clear codes and retest." The invoice also states Battery 390268 2*gh and on the next line Core Return.

I asked what this was about since I just had the recall update last week. It was getting tough to get to the bottom of this. He said that there was an update to the computer and they had to correct the update. It started to sound like a patch to the recall. Then he said that they had to reinstall the recall. I asked what that meant. Was there a bug fix to the recall or a problem with the original install? I then questioned if I needed to bring the blue car in for the same reinstall since they were upgraded 1 day apart. He asked if I had problems with the blue car and I said NO but if the car is throwing errors they need to determine that.

Needless to say we swapped the cars out tonight and the blue one is in for service. I was told to write on the drop off form "Check for software update". Lets see what they find.

 

[davideos]

It sounds to me like they may not know what the problem is or how to solve it. Kind of like kicking the TV, Washer, other major appliance to get it to work and it does. Don't know why it does, but it does....but, without the root cause resolved, the problem is likely to return.

Then, when it comes to electronics, the next step is to start replacing things. Why? Because parts are cheaper than labor. In this case, I think you are ok, because I think that indeed, the battery is bad. It could be that it sat on the lot a long time or that it was from a bad batch of batteries, but not because you don't drive it much. This isn't an ICE car where you have to run the car for a certain amount of time to replace the energy needed to start the car in the first place. I think that the only things that run on the 12V battery are the headlights, seat warmers, the fan in the HVAC system, stereo, lights, etc. Most likely, the DC to DC converter from High Voltage to 12V battery, is sufficient to charge the 12V battery like an ICE car. I think the 12V battery also gets charged when you plug in; so I don't really think the battery isn't getting replenished. If on the other hand your battery is defective, it can just die one day. I'm no lead acid battery expert, but it can happen. If the car were indeed sitting a long time on the lot with a 12V battery sitting below 10.5V, damage will occur. You can charge it up and it will seem fine for a little while, but the capacity of the battery will have been compromised and it will only get worse with time. I've seen this will lead acid gel cells, not specifically with car batteries, but the technology is basically the same. Marine batteries, or deep discharge batteries are specifically designed to handle extrordinary conditions like this (low battery voltage), but not car batteries which are intended to stay charged.

I think you can be relatively confident that the battery replacement will fix things. If it happens again, take it back and get another under warranty. Car manufacturers have already been shipping tires that wear down fast...I think they are doing the same with batteries too. Perhaps they learned this from ink jet printer manufacturers....give 'em enough ink for a few pages and then send them to the stores to buy ink at 1/3 the cost of the printer it goes in!

 

[davideos]

One more thought. When I had my SSN issue...one week before the release of the recall from Ford, I took my car to the Ford dealer for the "door chime" recall as well as to have them look into the SSN issue. When I got the car back, the service advisor wasn't there for me to ask what they did for the SSN issue, but I didn't see anything noted. So a week later, when the recall came out and I took the car back, I asked them what they did for the SSN issue when I was there the week before. The service advisor said that they thought the other recall would take care of it.

Granted, this is unfamiliar territory and it would be unacceptable to me for them to keep the car for 10 weeks while they try and find the issue, but the fact that they assumed that the one fix would take care of it shows that there is a lot of wishfull thinking when they are confronted with issues they are unfamiliar with. ...which is why I like this forum. We learn alot from others experiences...just like the dealers do when they service more and more cars.

Still very happy with my FFE. I was a bit skittish there when I had the SSN issue, but I'm back to loving it.

 

[EVA]

Now for the interesting part.... he said that the car had errors and needed a software update. Directly from the invoice: "TSB 13-9-19 Reprogram PCM and appropriate modules. Clear codes and retest." The invoice also states Battery 390268 2*gh and on the next line Core Return.

quote]

Susan - that was the TSB I had performed on my car for the dead 12V battery. That solved the problem. Good for your dealer replacing the battery. I don't think the SSN recall included that reprograming - would be my guess.

You could have driven the car to the dealer and asked the tow truck driver to follow you. On the other hand, maybe the dealer wasn't going to give you a loaner, so you didn't want to be trapped at the dealer - fair enough.

The shocking you are getting is likely static electricity built up with the tires rolling on the ground - that happens. Some tires can dissipate the static quickly, others take time. That was probably just happenstance that you got shocked.

 

[Astrand1]

Well my update. Took the car in this evening and was out in about 15 minutes with a brand new battery! I was amazed. They did not question anything. Just pulled out the original and dropped in a new one. This one has a nice bright green light on it and is showing strong voltage. So hopefully all is well.

 

[Susan]

Good morning. Quick update. I now have the blue car back. It was determined that it was up to date since the last SSN recall visit. The car's range calculations were out of our norm and freaked my husband out over these last few days. He has a long commute and it was cold here on Long Island. He only charges when he gets home. As of this morning he :lol: :lol: seems to be back to his normal.

Both cars are so far so good. I am being optimistic. BTW check out the SSN thread. A user is discussing the battery issue. I still love driving by the gas station. :lol: