145 FFE's sold in February

[jmueller065]

http://insideevs.com/february-2015-plug-electric-vehicle-sales-report-card/

The Inside EVs guys, though, seem to have their heads stuck where the sun doesn't shine:

Previously in January and December, just 85 and 53 (ouch) were sold (respectively), despite a $6,000 MSRP price cut (down to $29,995) just 2.5 months ago, and big discounts at the dealer level. We hate to say it, but the current generation of the plug-in Focus EV as it stands, is pretty much dead when it comes to consumer acceptance.

The FFE simply doesn't sell because Ford only sells how many it wants to build. If they built more and advertised/pushed it more it would sell more. Its that simple.

 

[alphac2005]

http://insideevs.com/february-2015-plug-electric-vehicle-sales-report-card/

The Inside EVs guys, though, seem to have their heads stuck where the sun doesn't shine:

Previously in January and December, just 85 and 53 (ouch) were sold (respectively), despite a $6,000 MSRP price cut (down to $29,995) just 2.5 months ago, and big discounts at the dealer level. We hate to say it, but the current generation of the plug-in Focus EV as it stands, is pretty much dead when it comes to consumer acceptance.

The FFE simply doesn't sell because Ford only sells how many it wants to build. If they built more and advertised/pushed it more it would sell more. Its that simple.

You're so right and I simply don't understand how organizations that are EV proponents keep perpetuating this nonsense about the FFE. The dealer where we bought ours in Atlanta can't get enough of them and at times is getting them through trading with other dealers. Our FFE came from a dealer in NJ that traded with our dealer. Ford is choosing to not build a fixed amount and outside of the slowdown for retooling for the '15 model, they just seem to keep selling 175-185 a month.

 

[pjam3]

I don't think it's that hard to understand. Ford does not see much revenue in the car, doesn't care to sell it, doesn't care to improve it, and doesn't care to make them. It's that simple. The ICE Focus was one of the more popular cars a few years back, might still be, so it shouldn't have been that hard for Ford to push and market the FFE over the Leaf or other EVs and plug-ins. But they didn't and they won't. Even the rumor about a 200 mile Ford EV doesn't mention the FFE.

Why they look and treat it as nothing more than a compliance car, who knows, but it is a nice car that will disappear in a few years because nobody really bought them, Ford never marketed them or made them, and the EV industry should improve to where a 200 mile EV becomes the norm and it just doesn't look like Ford will continue to push the FFE or improve it.

People need to look at the FFE as nothing more than a guinea pig purchase. It failed miserably because Ford just never seemed interested in selling it, but regardless of the reason, it's a failure to have a car that nobody buys. And maybe that's what Ford wanted all along, who knows.

 

[WetEV]

People need to look at the FFE as nothing more than a guinea pig purchase.

Ok, that is always how I viewed buying an electric car.

It failed miserably because Ford just never seemed interested in selling it, but regardless of the reason, it's a failure to have a car that nobody buys. And maybe that's what Ford wanted all along, who knows.

I don't agree. Ford has gotten a lot of information and experience with electric cars out of this, and the mostly happy drivers will be around to help Ford when Ford gets out of prototype phase.

Speculate for a minute if Ford brings out an electric version of the Mustang. Cheaper, lighter and smaller than a Tesla Model S, but similar 0-60 times. Enough range for most people, more than the Focus and less than the Model S.

Would that sell? Sure, not a large fraction of sales, yet, as the Mustang is targeted at a range of the car market, and a more expensive electric pony would be a subset of that market. Suppose your neighbor's kid started wondering about one. He can talk to you about your FFE, and would likely more likely to buy. Ford is building a base of knowledge in the market as well as internal.

 

[JTCalif]

Ford has gotten a lot of information and experience with electric cars out of this, and the mostly happy drivers will be around to help Ford when Ford gets out of prototype phase.[...]

That is an appealing idea, which would sit better if Ford asked owners for feedback.

Have ANY of you had a contact from a Ford rep. asking about any aspect of the car?

 

[jmueller065]

It failed miserably because Ford just never seemed interested in selling it, but regardless of the reason, it's a failure to have a car that nobody buys. And maybe that's what Ford wanted all along, who knows.

Its only a failure in your eyes. Using Ford's measures (at least the ones they've publicly stated) its a smashing success. I would bet that its been too successful in Ford's eyes (I'm sure there are many gearheads in Ford that secretly or not so secretly wished that the FFEs would just sit on lots not being sold so the company could discontinue it and they could say: "See EVs aren't that popular we don't need to build one"):

• Ford has said all along that they won't sell many (check: successful)
• They haven't marketed it at all and yet they still sell close to 2000/year (Look at the other cars that get a larger marketing budget, check)
• They sell every FFE they build by any measure that is a successful car
• As mentioned above Ford now has free beta testing from many happy customers (but not all as pjam3 is a good example)

Ford doesn't really have to ask any of us about the car since all of our driving data is uploaded to them anyway. Now who's opinions are important here? Industry? nope, Media? nope, pjam3's? nope, mine? nope, Ford's? Yes

 

[Stretch2727]

Ford was number one seller of plug in electric vehicles in February. The FFE sold limited numbers mainly due to low inventory. As inventory is replenished my prediction is you will see much stronger sales numbers with the new pricing structure.

 

[jeffand]

Here in the midwest dealer inventory is zero. So inorder to test drive one you have to drive 500 miles to a dealership that has one, or track down an owner that has one. The sales that are being made are only from customer orders.

 

[hybridbear]

I don't think it's that hard to understand. Ford does not see much revenue in the car, doesn't care to sell it, doesn't care to improve it, and doesn't care to make them. It's that simple.

I would guess that Ford doesn't make money on the FFE and that is one reason why they don't promote it.

I think that Ford executives are smart enough to know that the $7500 tax credit won't last forever and that if they prolong their tax credit until there is a more demand and thus better margins on EVs then Ford can gain market share.

It failed miserably because Ford just never seemed interested in selling it, but regardless of the reason, it's a failure to have a car that nobody buys. And maybe that's what Ford wanted all along, who knows.

Its only a failure in your eyes. Using Ford's measures (at least the ones they've publicly stated) its a smashing success. I would bet that its been too successful in Ford's eyes (I'm sure there are many gearheads in Ford that secretly or not so secretly wished that the FFEs would just sit on lots not being sold so the company could discontinue it and they could say: "See EVs aren't that popular we don't need to build one"):
...
As mentioned above Ford now has free beta testing from many happy customers (but not all as pjam3 is a good example)
...
Ford doesn't really have to ask any of us about the car since all of our driving data is uploaded to them anyway. Now who's opinions are important here? Industry? nope, Media? nope, pjam3's? nope, mine? nope, Ford's? Yes

Great comment. I think you're exactly right. I'm sure there are Ford employees who wanted to see the FFE be an utter disaster because they're like Jeremy Clarkson, orangutans!!

Taking Ford's approach in building the Focus electric into consideration, I suspect that the number of FFEs produced may not be limited by the ability to sell them as much as it may be limited by the capacity of one or more of Fords suppliers to provide key components, most likely either the battery, or the drive-train. I suspect that one or both of those components are capacity constrained somewhere in the vicinity of 175-200 per month. Ford can then adjust it's incentives and Marketing to keep the demand for the car in line with the capacity. If the FFE becomes more popular, I suspect the incentives will dry up altogether. If/when the incentives are gone, the marketing at nil, and they are still selling all they can build, they will either raise the price or invest in increased capacity at the bottleneck.

This is a reasonable supposition. Many other PHEVs are considered to be capacity constrained by their manufacturers. Honda has said for more than a year that they can't get enough parts from suppliers to build enough Accord Hybrids for the marketplace. Mitsubishi claims that the reason why they haven't started selling the Outlander PHEV in the US is because they can't build enough to meet demand in Europe & Asia, much less enter a new market.

Here in the midwest dealer inventory is zero. So in order to test drive one you have to ... track down an owner that has one. The sales that are being made are only from customer orders.

This is what we did. Other local Focus Electric owners have allowed ppl to drive our cars at Drive Electric Week events or at local owners group meetings. We drove someone else's Focus Electric before deciding to get one.

 

[pjam3]

It failed miserably because Ford just never seemed interested in selling it, but regardless of the reason, it's a failure to have a car that nobody buys. And maybe that's what Ford wanted all along, who knows.

Its only a failure in your eyes. Using Ford's measures (at least the ones they've publicly stated) its a smashing success. I would bet that its been too successful in Ford's eyes (I'm sure there are many gearheads in Ford that secretly or not so secretly wished that the FFEs would just sit on lots not being sold so the company could discontinue it and they could say: "See EVs aren't that popular we don't need to build one"):

• Ford has said all along that they won't sell many (check: successful)
• They haven't marketed it at all and yet they still sell close to 2000/year (Look at the other cars that get a larger marketing budget, check)
• They sell every FFE they build by any measure that is a successful car
• As mentioned above Ford now has free beta testing from many happy customers (but not all as pjam3 is a good example)

Ford doesn't really have to ask any of us about the car since all of our driving data is uploaded to them anyway. Now who's opinions are important here? Industry? nope, Media? nope, pjam3's? nope, mine? nope, Ford's? Yes

Sounds like you work for ford.

A company who purposely doesn't want to sell a car and never actually tries to sell it, is a failure. It's called business. Just because you and a few thousand people like it, doesn't make it a success. And so if many executives at Ford never wanted to sell the FFE, they won. The people who want the FFE to succeed failed. If it started out as selling 100 cars a month and by 2015 they were selling 1000 per month and couldn't keep up, that is success despite Ford not wanting it to be. But just because you refuse to believe in the reality of a whats actually going on, doesn't mean it's true.

And a company selling 85 and 150 and so on cars in a month is not a success no matter what you try to tell yourself. The executives at Ford who don't want to sell the FFE won that battle because they are a business and nobody is buying the FFE. Simple fact. Doesn't matter the reason behind it, it's just the reality.

As far as the data, sorry but 2000 cars isn't exactly a great way to collect data. It's a start, but a small sample. It's such a limited use case, that it won't serve that much of a point in the long run. If Ford actually wanted to learn anything from the data, it would make more sense if they were selling like the Model S or Nissan Leaf. Those cars have tons of users and tons of real data. Ford has about 2000 users.

And the reality is even though Ford has been at the forefront of some of the latest and greatest technology efforts, the reality is they haven't exactly utilized all of the data or been able to analyze it. They are trying to and its a big reason why they opened a bigger tech office in Silicon Valley. They hired a new CDO and are trying to change the culture, but assuming just because you drive their electric car that they are analyzing everything about it is kind of funny. Many of these companies like to market these things, most just collect the data and run standard reports. I do give them credit because they want to hire data scientists, data engineers, and want to become an "Amazon, Apple, Google" of the Auto world. They want to change their culture.
But they aren't close to actually being able to analyze all the sensor data that is collected. And that's on all the other cars and systems, much less the FFE. Just because they collect it, doesn't mean they actually analyze it all. They aren't Tesla and even Tesla has challenges. And that's not exactly a Ford or Tesla problem, thats pretty much an every company problem.

Yeah Listening to some marketing stories is great, but it's mostly PR. Many of these companies talk big stories in the media, at conferences, but most of them aren't doing nearly as much as they like to market. They want to and they have a plan to do so, but 99 percent of them, including Ford, aren't actually close to doing it yet.

But hey keep telling yourself what you need to believe.

 

[Rogerschro]

It failed miserably because Ford just never seemed interested in selling it, but regardless of the reason, it's a failure to have a car that nobody buys. And maybe that's what Ford wanted all along, who knows.

Its only a failure in your eyes. Using Ford's measures (at least the ones they've publicly stated) its a smashing success. I would bet that its been too successful in Ford's eyes (I'm sure there are many gearheads in Ford that secretly or not so secretly wished that the FFEs would just sit on lots not being sold so the company could discontinue it and they could say: "See EVs aren't that popular we don't need to build one"):

• Ford has said all along that they won't sell many (check: successful)
• They haven't marketed it at all and yet they still sell close to 2000/year (Look at the other cars that get a larger marketing budget, check)
• They sell every FFE they build by any measure that is a successful car
• As mentioned above Ford now has free beta testing from many happy customers (but not all as pjam3 is a good example)

Ford doesn't really have to ask any of us about the car since all of our driving data is uploaded to them anyway. Now who's opinions are important here? Industry? nope, Media? nope, pjam3's? nope, mine? nope, Ford's? Yes

Sounds like you work for ford.

A company who purposely doesn't want to sell a car and never actually tries to sell it, is a failure. It's called business. Just because you and a few thousand people like it, doesn't make it a success. And so if many executives at Ford never wanted to sell the FFE, they won. The people who want the FFE to succeed failed. If it started out as selling 100 cars a month and by 2015 they were selling 1000 per month and couldn't keep up, that is success despite Ford not wanting it to be. But just because you refuse to believe in the reality of a whats actually going on, doesn't mean it's true.

And a company selling 85 and 150 and so on cars in a month is not a success no matter what you try to tell yourself. The executives at Ford who don't want to sell the FFE won that battle because they are a business and nobody is buying the FFE. Simple fact. Doesn't matter the reason behind it, it's just the reality.

As far as the data, sorry but 2000 cars isn't exactly a great way to collect data. It's a start, but a small sample. It's such a limited use case, that it won't serve that much of a point in the long run. If Ford actually wanted to learn anything from the data, it would make more sense if they were selling like the Model S or Nissan Leaf. Those cars have tons of users and tons of real data. Ford has about 2000 users.

And the reality is even though Ford has been at the forefront of some of the latest and greatest technology efforts, the reality is they haven't exactly utilized all of the data or been able to analyze it. They are trying to and its a big reason why they opened a bigger tech office in Silicon Valley. They hired a new CDO and are trying to change the culture, but assuming just because you drive their electric car that they are analyzing everything about it is kind of funny. Many of these companies like to market these things, most just collect the data and run standard reports. I do give them credit because they want to hire data scientists, data engineers, and want to become an "Amazon, Apple, Google" of the Auto world. They want to change their culture.
But they aren't close to actually being able to analyze all the sensor data that is collected. And that's on all the other cars and systems, much less the FFE. Just because they collect it, doesn't mean they actually analyze it all. They aren't Tesla and even Tesla has challenges. And that's not exactly a Ford or Tesla problem, thats pretty much an every company problem.

Yeah Listening to some marketing stories is great, but it's mostly PR. Many of these companies talk big stories in the media, at conferences, but most of them aren't doing nearly as much as they like to market. They want to and they have a plan to do so, but 99 percent of them, including Ford, aren't actually close to doing it yet.

But hey keep telling yourself what you need to believe.

I'm not certain you understand business or what success is, unless you have a wall street mentality of high stock return, large quantity mass production expectations. I am not an apologist for Ford, nor do I pretend to know what Ford intended for their FFE, or what their future plans are, but in my own mind, I think Ford put out a great product in the FFE, the balance of production, features, serviceability and yes, even support is pretty well thought out. Perfect? no, but over all, I think they got it right. As a multi national company, having products all over the world, I doubt very much Ford is worried about their level of advertising on the FFE. It seems to serve the goals they have right now. Would I like to see more from them? Yes. But the reality is, we are the early adopters. We are on the forefront of a developing technology that Ford probably knows will change Very rapidly now that interest in EV's is gaining ground. As much as I really do like my FFE, and would like to see more of them around, As a businessman, I would not invest much more myself in the FFE. What I would do is concentrate on future developments, consult with Battery developers and alternative fuel tech companies to plan a future model that is sustainable and/or upgradable, that could be used cross platform and appeal to a broader spectrum of consumers. Fords line of Hybrids is successful for that reason, they are multi-platform capable and appeal to a larger spectrum of customers. Are those models the future of cars? No, I don't think so, they serve as a bridge. The FFE is to my mind a success in that it proves a full electric car Can be built for the common man, at a cost 'most' can afford and that will be serviceable by dealerships already established with only minimal training requirements (yes, oversimplified statements I know, but essentially true).

I am very happy with my FFE, It does a great job, looks great, has more features than I need, handles very well, and is a pleasure to drive. It is a harbinger of things to come, but is not, in itself the future of electric cars. It is a forerunner. Much of the development from production of this car will influence future designs. It is a success when the sales continue into their third year, prices go down and demand holds steady, in spite of the lack of advertising or push by Ford. It is a success when we expect more from Ford and look to future designs and hope for a new model we can buy from them. It is a success when we WANT Ford to be a leader in the development of EV's. It is a success when we think Ford SHOULD be advertising it more than they do. We, members of the general ordinary public, OWN an all electric car! I'd call that a success for Ford! (or maybe just for me, I'm proud to have the FFE as my primary car)

 

[eaglelaker]

Rogerschro your comment has really hit home for me. I have yet to take delivery on my FFE, but I am confident I chose the right car for my lifestyle. And will enjoy driving it for many years. Friends and family are skeptical about my decision to go electric but think it will work out in the long run. Can't Wait!

 

[triangles]

Ford has gotten a lot of information and experience with electric cars out of this, and the mostly happy drivers will be around to help Ford when Ford gets out of prototype phase.[...]

That is an appealing idea, which would sit better if Ford asked owners for feedback.

Have ANY of you had a contact from a Ford rep. asking about any aspect of the car?

With the data link Ford gets all the data (feedback) they could possibly want. They know everything you do with your car, where you go, how fast/far you drive, when and how you charge, etc etc. Why would they need to contact any owner?

 

[Rogerschro]

Rogerschro your comment has really hit home for me. I have yet to take delivery on my FFE, but I am confident I chose the right car for my lifestyle. And will enjoy driving it for many years. Friends and family are skeptical about my decision to go electric but think it will work out in the long run. Can't Wait!

Thanks for the kind words. I'm sure you will love the car! I have zero regrets trading my 2012 Focus SEL for the 2012 FFE, Every time I get in the car I smile! I even have a gas station literally across the street from me and I don't miss having to pull up and fill the tank!

 

[brogult]

@pjam3

You can't fairly state that someone has failed unless you know what it is that they set out to do.

It is possible, even likely, that Ford loses money on each FFE sold. Their goal might be to lose less money than buying ZEV credits would cost. Once they have enough ZEV credits, losing more money by making more cars hardly seems like a winning game plan.

I've no idea where you get the notion that a sample size of 2000+ cars is "small" or insufficient for research purposes. I suspect that for most studies, more samples would simply be excess.

I, for one, am happy to have my highly subsidized FFE. I think the only way to make the car profitable would be to cut costs (a lot), like the Leaf--which apparently is profitable, or at least not a huge loss-leader. Then I wouldn't like it as much.

 

[hybridbear]

It is possible, even likely, that Ford loses money on each FFE sold. Their goal might be to lose less money than buying ZEV credits would cost. Once they have enough ZEV credits, losing more money by making more cars hardly seems like a winning game plan.

Fantastic point! Is there any way to calculate how many ZEV credits Ford needs for CARB? Do their SEC filings reference this at all?

 

[twscrap]

It is possible, even likely, that Ford loses money on each FFE sold. Their goal might be to lose less money than buying ZEV credits would cost. Once they have enough ZEV credits, losing more money by making more cars hardly seems like a winning game plan.

Fantastic point! Is there any way to calculate how many ZEV credits Ford needs for CARB? Do their SEC filings reference this at all?

Assuming they are moving enough Fusion and CMAX Energis in California to make up the difference, they would only have to move about 425 FFEs in the state each year to meet their obligation.

 

[hybridbear]

It is possible, even likely, that Ford loses money on each FFE sold. Their goal might be to lose less money than buying ZEV credits would cost. Once they have enough ZEV credits, losing more money by making more cars hardly seems like a winning game plan.

Fantastic point! Is there any way to calculate how many ZEV credits Ford needs for CARB? Do their SEC filings reference this at all?

Assuming they are moving enough Fusion and CMAX Energis in California to make up the difference, they would only have to move about 425 FFEs in the state each year to meet their obligation.

What kind of credits do the PHEVs qualify for? They have such a limited EV range that I can imagine that they get many ZEV credits.

 

[twscrap]

What kind of credits do the PHEVs qualify for? They have such a limited EV range that I can imagine that they get many ZEV credits.

I don't remember the actual numbers off the top of my head, but as an AT-PZEVs it's above the 0.2 credit for PZEVs. Just don't recall how much higher.

 

[brogult]

I have not been able to decipher the CARB ZEV rules sufficiently to give numerical answers. I can't find a reliable source and the rules have changed many times. If someone has this figured out and broken down I'd love to see it. However, I can tell you that the manufacturers have a quota of ZEV/TZEV sales based on their overall sales. They need a certain number of "credits", which they get from BEVs, PHEVs (less per vehicle) and FCVs.

They can't meet the requirements just with PHEVs. They also need a smaller number of actual ZEV sales, which can be BEV or FCV. So GM, for example, needs to sell a few Spark EVs and a larger number of Volts. Nissan, OTOH, just sells plenty of Leafs (Leaves?).

I don't know where Fords FFE sales lines up with their absolute ZEV requirement. I know they meet the bulk of their overall credit requirement with the C-Max Energi and Fusion Energi.