Ford Focus EV vs. Nissan Leaf - What to do???

[annm]

I am trying to decide between leasing a FFE EV or a Leaf. My Ford dealer offered a slightly better 3 year lease deal on the 2013 FFE - $250 per month, $2500 down, 10,500 miles, about $1,000 less over the course of the lease than the offer I received from Nissan on the 2014 Leaf (the 2013 is no longer available).
I'd probably grab the Ford for the money-savings alone, as the cars seem very close to me with different pluses and minuses for each. What I'm most concerned about regarding the FFE is the safety problem I read in this forum - "Stop Safely Now" - where the car just stops in the middle of the road.
How common is this problem and is the Leaf a better bet in terms of safety and reliability?
Any thoughts/advice much appreciated!

 

[EVA]

Safety:
Leaf 4 star crash test
http://youtu.be/0u1rge944ss
Ford Focus Electric 5 star crash test
http://youtu.be/Id7rpYuPlaY

I know which car I'd rather drive.

 

[WattsUp]

The FFE also has a much better battery temperature management system. This should mean increased battery health in the FFE, and greater retained capacity down the line.

Also, the FFE is quite noticably sportier to drive. The Leaf floats along like it's on marshmallow wheels.

And... c'mon, the Leaf looks like a frog.

 

[oilman]

I researched both and leased the Focus for two keys reasons. The first is that I live in Houston where it is hot and the active battery temperature management in the Focus means I don’t have to worry about battery temperature. Read some of the Leaf online forums and most of the discussion is about battery temperature and capacity degradation. The second reason is that you sit ‘in’ the Focus and ‘on’ the Leaf. By that I mean that I feel more a part of the Focus, while I never connected with the Leaf. I can’t comment on the driving characteristics of the Leaf because I was never able to take one for a test drive. None of the dealers had one I could drive, I could only look.

Other positives for the Focus: a little cheaper, much better interior finish (a lot less hard plastic and better seats), and I preferred the Focus controls. Two main Focus negatives for some people: the Focus has a lot less cargo space than the Leaf. This is offset by the very uncomfortable back seat in the Leaf because of the high floor – try it, you will hate it. The Leaf also has an available fast charge option. This is the 480v DC charging option that will provide an 80% charge in 30 minutes. However, this is offset by the battery temperature issue (I wouldn’t feel comfortable charging this way very often as it will really heat up the battery) and also the fact that there are not a lot of these chargers available in most places.

If you are a driver and like cars, you will prefer the Focus. If you are only interested in getting from A to B and don’t care how you get there, then the Leaf is competitive.

My two cents. Oilman

 

[Gforce]

I have driven both, and let me first say the Leaf is far cheaper than the focus in terms of total dollars. The Leaf has and MSRP thousands lower than the focus and while I was at the Ford dealer last night, payment structure they offered was much higher than a Leaf. The Leaf has more features such as eco mode to increase range and other features like carwings. The Leaf is quick 0-30 but slow from 31-60mph. The Focus on the other hand has more power and is faster to 60mph and handles better at higher speeds. The focus is more sporty and looks and feels like a gas vehicle.

As the back seats, I would much rather have the Leafs back seats they sit higher up and offer much better leg room compared to the focus.

So if money is a concern and along with back seat leg room go with the Leaf, if you want a more sporty get up and go car, go with the focus.

 

[michael]

Watts Up and Oilman hit the nail on the head. The Leaf has a really deficient thermal management system. The Focus, Volt, and Tesla are examples of how it should be done. Look at the Leaf forum. All the people there obsess about their battery condition.

 

[MNEV]

I am going through this same consideration. I have been looking at the Leaf and FFE over the past two weeks.
A couple of observations that are weighing on my consideration:

Commitment to EV proposition:
Nissan really jumped in with both feet and is actively upgrading the Leaf year to year. They seem very committed to fixing deficiencies. They put a heat pump system in the SV and SL to increase the winter range. I would love to see this in the FFE, especially since they already use something similar for the battery. This is very visible in the market. There are 50 new Leaf available in the Twin Cities and there are 3 FFE’s. I worry there is just not the critical mass to properly support the product. Are there any ford techs that have enough time and training on the FFE to provide necessary service to the vehicle? I know the Nissan deal has a Leaf tech specialist. I am sure the Ford dealer does not.
I feel both dealerships did a bad job on really knowing the EV product. The Ford deal could only talk about the regular focus feature and only real basics about the EV side of the vehical (I felt like I know a lot more about it than he did from my internet research). I tested out three Nissan dealers and they were all over the map. I started with a young sales person who didn’t know much. The most save of sales people know enough to know that I probably already research the product (and know about as much as he did) and didn’t try to guess at answers I already knew. Still, at the dealership level I found both lacking.
Fords lack of improvements from 2013 to 2014 model year is really troubling. It makes it feel more like a compliance experiment than a commitment to the EV. With a newer technology it is hard to believe they got it so perfect they need no tweaks. Come on Ford, step up to the plate at least.

Winter Driving:
I am in Minnesota and went out looking on January 7th in the midst of the Polar Votex (new term to me but plenty talked about this week) with the high at -12F and the lows to depressing to talk about. I need the car to be viable in Minnesota winters.
At one dealer, they had two charged Leaf, which they could not get started. This kindof puzzled me with an electric car but it was the other battery which was dead I guess. I went to another dealer and test drove a LEAF S. I got no heat whatsoever (my feet were frozen and my wallet was closed after that test drive). The sales person said it was a problem with that particular car and let me take the SV out, which did much better. I had been ready to buy before the frozen feet and was not afterwards.
Leaf has the heat pump in the SV and SL which I mention earlier. This looks like it is a plus for most of the winter. The Leaf S miles dropped quickly (even as the heater did not appear to work). The SV (with the heat pump) did a little better but only had it out a short time.
I test drove the FFE when it was a balmy 0F. The sales person had to jump the car to get it started (they don’t have many people coming in for test drives and don’t bother to keep it charged. I called an hour before stopping by and they were able to have it about a ¼ charged and warmed up. Again both the Nissan and Ford dealers don’t bother to have these ready for people to drive on a drop in basis.
The FFE was nicely appointed and drove well. I noticed a lot of squeaking in the front while negotiating every bump in the road.. I asked the person on the test drive about it. He said he never really heard it before and was likely compacted snow as they move them around the parking lot to plow snow. After the drive I checked the wheel well and found no snow. Looked in the engine compartment and saw no ices. These leads me to believe it is the product fit and finish coupled with the cold weather (and lack of driving?). Hard to believe it would get better with more driving but it may be the suspension was really just frozen up.

Price:
Overall I got the impression of the FFE being the red headed step child on the lot which corporate was making them keep an eye on. He said they were willing to price it aggressively (it was a 2013 that they had for 6 months). We didn’t get into too serious negotiating but I think I could do about the same price out of pocket and monthly lease with the FFE and the Leaf SV.
I am still on the fence. I had really planned to buy a Leaf last week. Last week was the first time I ever would into a dealer ready to buy and not come out with a new car. I literally got cold feet!

Looking to be an EV driver in Minnesota

 

[michael]

I really hate to say this, because I love my FFE, but I think considering the cold weather you ought to consider a Volt.

Here in Southern California, I think the FFE is an easy choice over the Leaf. Here, the Leaf's lack of thermal management is a problem (and a bigger problem yet for you I imagine) But the effect of reduced temperatures, together with the high energy consumption of the resistive heater makes me worry about the suitability of an FFE for you. Much if not most of the year it would be great, but I worry for the winters.

 

[MNEV]

I really hate to say this, because I love my FFE, but I think considering the cold weather you ought to consider a Volt.

Here in Southern California, I think the FFE is an easy choice over the Leaf. Here, the Leaf's lack of thermal management is a problem (and a bigger problem yet for you I imagine) But the effect of reduced temperatures, together with the high energy consumption of the resistive heater makes me worry about the suitability of an FFE for you. Much if not most of the year it would be great, but I worry for the winters.

Thanks for the feedback.

The first vehical I test drove was the Volt. I love the idea of a range extended EV. I think that is the right formula. Electric drive drain and a generator back up (a better idea then other hybrid types). I just really hated the styling. The support pillar behind the driver is wide and deep creating a total blind spot. It look to have about 5 inches of clearance in the front. It would not do well in snow. You would bust up the plastic molding on the first snow bank you have to go through after things been freshly plowed.

 

[jmueller065]

Commitment:
Ford has not really stated if the FFE will be around a long time. From evidence I see it will at least be around for the next Focus refresh (2015 model year). All their engineers and marketing people keep repeating the same message: "We don't think the FFE will sell well"--sure it won't because they don't push it. In addition they also build the FFE in Europe--so at least two plants churn them out.

Winter driving:
The Leaf may have the heat pump but it doesn't have the battery temperature management system that FFE does. So yes the FFE will burn a lot more electrons keeping you warm but it will also keep the battery warm. FFE users don't get as much of a range drop as Leaf users do in winter because of it. I haven't had much of an issue with the cold temps with mine (I'm in southeastern Michigan and have just lived through the same cold snap--our coldest temp was -15F). In fact I wrote about it here:
http://jamiegeek.myevblog.com/2014/01/10/turning-the-corner-on-winter/

Since you are already making the decision between a Leaf and the FFE I'm assuming that you've done your research and know your commute miles, etc. and that they all fit within the range of both cars--but you didn't provide those details.

I don't think you need a Volt.

 

[MNEV]

Commitment:
Ford has not really stated if the FFE will be around a long time. From evidence I see it will at least be around for the next Focus refresh (2015 model year). All their engineers and marketing people keep repeating the same message: "We don't think the FFE will sell well"--sure it won't because they don't push it. In addition they also build the FFE in Europe--so at least two plants churn them out.

Winter driving:
The Leaf may have the heat pump but it doesn't have the battery temperature management system that FFE does. So yes the FFE will burn a lot more electrons keeping you warm but it will also keep the battery warm. FFE users don't get as much of a range drop as Leaf users do in winter because of it. I haven't had much of an issue with the cold temps with mine (I'm in southeastern Michigan and have just lived through the same cold snap--our coldest temp was -15F). In fact I wrote about it here:
http://jamiegeek.myevblog.com/2014/01/10/turning-the-corner-on-winter/

Since you are already making the decision between a Leaf and the FFE I'm assuming that you've done your research and know your commute miles, etc. and that they all fit within the range of both cars--but you didn't provide those details.

I don't think you need a Volt.

Thanks for the info. You blog post is helpful.

Most of my commutes are 20 miles round trip so range will not be an issue most of the time. On about a monthly basis I have to drive 45-50 miles round trip without a good place to plug in. I’d like to not sweat that drive. This is looking like it will be pretty tight in winter driving.

 

[jmueller065]

Most of my commutes are 20 miles round trip so range will not be an issue most of the time. On about a monthly basis I have to drive 45-50 miles round trip without a good place to plug in. I’d like to not sweat that drive. This is looking like it will be pretty tight in winter driving.

Yeah that is doable--that is about the distance my coworker makes for his daily commute in his FFE. In the extreme cold he has to use some unusual methods to stay warm without using the heater (12V heated blanket! http://www.smarthome.com/9209/Maxsa-Innovations-Comfy-Cruise-12V-Electric-Travel-Blanket-Navy-Blue/p.aspx ) but he does make it without needing an extra charge. (Both he and I, though, have a spare ICE vehicle as an option for those days when we can't use the FFE.)

Once you've driven the car around (FFE or otherwise) you get pretty accustomed to what it can and cannot do...

 

[Gigi]

Most of my commutes are 20 miles round trip so range will not be an issue most of the time. On about a monthly basis I have to drive 45-50 miles round trip without a good place to plug in. I’d like to not sweat that drive. This is looking like it will be pretty tight in winter driving.

My daughter went to college up your way. The first summer when she came home, somebody asked her, "So, you survived the winter semester?" She replied, "Ya, both of 'em."

Have you considered looking at an Energi? The kind of driving you do, you could drive it mostly as an EV. The ICE would settle any range worries for your longer trips. During our Minnesota-esque experience with the polar vortex this past week here in Atlanta, with temps down into the single digits, I was happy that our Fusion Energi had an ICE to kick in and provide some warmth for the climate system when needed.

I'm about to go and buy an FFE because it will meet my needs probably 90% of the time, but it is with the understanding that some winter days, I am probably going to have to park it and use a back-up vehicle because of the effect of running the heater on range.

By the way, I am very happy with the Fusion Energi.

 

[EVA]

About range - I live in the Chicago suburbs and commute into Chicago, round trip is, call it 30 miles. In the summer, no problem at all with range - 70 miles is a piece of cake, super simple, even with air conditioning.

The winter is a whole different beast. Right now the car shows 49 miles range. That is probably a fairly accurate number - we run the heater at 64 degrees and that's how far the range has dropped. If I wanted to squeeze out more range, I could run the heater at 62 and do a little better. Or do the JMueller thing and use seat heaters and a blanket.

The range dropped when the temperature got to around 40 degrees - the heater started to kick in then. I'm not really seeing a huge difference in range from -5 to 40 degrees. The heater seems to work the same amount.

It sounds like your driving needs fit the Focus just fine. I'm just not a fan of hauling around the extra weight of an engine just because once in a great while I might exceed the range (really go more than 20 miles between charges in those plug in hybrids). If you're going someplace far, just rent a car.

 

[JOEFRIDAY]

For those that are reading this thread and trying to decide between the LEAF or the Ford Focus Electric, I'll give you my two cents. We have one of each.

We got the LEAF first and a year later got the FFE as we learned how to integrate an electric vehicle into our lifestyle. We drive about 15,000 miles a year on the LEAF and about 10,000 miles a year on the Focus. My wife drives the kids back an forth to school and that is why the LEAF has more miles.

I basically leave the house and expect that I have an 80 mile range. I can go out 40 miles and drive 40 miles back. If I need to drive more than 40 miles then I will need to charge the vehicle while it is out. The LEAF and FFE have been charged less than a dozen times away from home in the last 24 months (except at the airport). The reason is because there are only two charging stations in our area. One is at the train station and the other is at Whole Foods. If we see an open charger at Whole Foods then we'll use it. It's nice to have but it's not a requirement. Our airport has charging stations and I do charge the vehicle at the airport when I fly out of town because the airport is about 50 miles one way.

I would purchase either vehicle again. They are both great cars. The FFE looks like a normal car. The LEAF looks different. Some people think it's cute. Some think it is ugly. It's going to come down to what you want for your specific application. You can't go wrong with either choice.

First, I would lease-not buy. It insures you get the maximum FEDERAL tax credit. The technology is changing quickly. For example, in 2012 it took 8 hours to charge a LEAF. In 2013 it took 4 hours. In 2016 it might take 20 minutes. I'm not going to feel real good with a 2012 slow charging vehicle in 2016 if a 20 minute charger is available. Also if you lease, you will never have to worry about replacing the batteries because they will always be under warranty. Leasing also fixes your cost and you know exactly how much you are spending per year on this car You can also figure out how much gas you are not buying. Our EVs pretty much pay for themselves in the GAS that we do not buy. The numbers work real well on the LEAF and the FFE. Remember to figure your entire cost (including down payments, scheduled payments, etc) for the 3 year lease and divide by 36. The EV's are the least expensive cars that I can find to drive. The reason for this is because you are not buying hundreds of dollars of gas each month. The electric bill for these cars is about $1 a day in our area. That's a lot of miles for $1 a day.

In our case the Focus was less expensive than the LEAF. That's because Ford had some great incentives when we purchased the FFE. We paid straight sticker for the LEAF with no incentives because it was a pre-order and they were not discounting LEAFS back then.

If you need to carry passengers then the LEAF has a whole lot more interior room. Three adults can ride in the back seat in comfort. The LEAF was designed from the ground up as an electric vehicle. Nissan did a wonderful job. The Focus Electric is much like the regular Focus with an electric motor instead of a gasoline engine. The FFE is longer than the LEAF but it has less room in the passenger compartment.

The Focus drives exactly like a car. The Focus has much better upholstery than the LEAF. It's a strong car and can survive a tremendous impact. It's fast and it holds the road. The back seat (like most small Fords made over the past 50 years) is not suitable for an adult. So if you need to use the back seat then the FFE is not really a good choice unless you are going to have small children back there. Personally, I prefer to drive the FFE over the LEAF. My wife likes to drive the LEAF over the FFE. So it's a matter of personal choice.

The level 2 charger that you install at your home will charge both the LEAF and the Ford Focus Electric as well as every other EV except for the TESLA. (In an emergency, the TESLA will actually charge with an adapter with the level 2 charger--although it will be much slower)

And yes, everyone should get a level 2 charger at their home. The charger that comes with the vehicle I use for emergencies. It is slow (up to 18 hours) and really not designed to be the primary charger for the vehicle. Amazon has the level 2 chargers for under $1000. Home Depot has one for under $600. You do not need to buy the one from the car manufacturer. An electrician can install the charger in 3-4 hours. It's like installing a dryer circuit and it is not complicated.

Hope this helps.

Joe

 

[bgs]

Joefriday, thanks for the detailed reviews. It's helpful to hear from someone who's got both and likes both, rather than someone who's just defending the choice they've made. Not sure where you live, but if you live in a cold climate, do you notice one is a lot better in the cold in terms of passenger comfort and/or energy usage?

 

[JOEFRIDAY]

Our EV's are in North Carolina. So we get all four seasons, but not the extreme cold and snow most of the time. On the dash the cold weather does indicate decreased range, but it's not anything that has caused us an issue (because of our mild climate). It may be an issue in extreme cold climates. The LEAF dash has a warning that comes on when it is cold (near freezing) outside. I haven't seen that warning on the FFE. I don't know how much the cold weather decreases range, but again it has not been an issue in our applications.

The heater does use a lot of electricity on both of the vehicles and is the biggest thing that decreases range. It seems to me that the LEAF uses more electricity (because it decreases range the most) on it's heating system, than the FFE, but I don't have anything scientific to back it up. Overall the climate control system on the Ford FFE is superior to the one on the LEAF. (Especially the defrost function) The one of the FFE just plain works just like on most other vehicles.

The 2012 LEAF has a defrost problem that can be annoying if you need that function. It has a hard time defogging the windows. Maybe they have improved it on the later models, but since I don't have one, I can't comment.

I never worry about the air conditioner on either vehicle. I leave it on all the time unless it's cold outside. It's not a range killer. Both air conditioners work well just like on any other vehicle.

Both of our EV's are garaged. We do pre-heat them (while plugged in) during the cold season. My wife thinks I'm wasting electricity, but I have no problem with a 20-30 minute pre-heat while the EV is plugged in.

On the other hand, I do turn the heater off while the cars are on the road whenever possible. Once the car interior is warm, I turn it off. When it gets cold I turn it back on until it's warm again. This saves electricity and is the best thing you can do to extend range. The heated seats are always on when it is cold in either vehicle. I don't think the heated seats use much electricity.

The LEAF has a heated steering wheel which actually helps more than I would have first thought. The FFE does not have a heated steering wheel. That would be a great feature for Ford to add to the FFE. By the way, the heated steering wheel does shut off after a period of time (might be temperature) and it has to be turned back on.

Joe

 

[WetEV]

Newer LEAF (2013 and 2014) have an option for a heat pump heater. Uses much less electricity than the 2012/2011 and the FFE.

Would not help at extreme cold, but is very nice in Seattle area, with our two seasons, rainy and less rainy.

While I don't own a FFE, I've driven one a lot. Both the LEAF and the FFE are nice cars.