Max kWh on new 2017 pack?

[tkdbrusco]

Hey everyone. I just got an FFE 2017 on a lease (15k/year). I downloaded for scan lite and want to keep tabs on my battery over the coming years. I'm a leaf owner as well and consider myself quite experienced in measuring battery degradation and such.

My objective is to simply determine how my pack is doing over the coming three years so that I can anticipate whether buying the car at least end is the best course of action. I got a great deal on the car so I'm out either $7300 at lease end and can either turn it back in, or buy it for $8080, so either way is fine by me. If the pack is holding up well, then I'll buy it, if not, then I'll give it back. Right now my Leaf (24kwh 2015 model) is at about 11% degradation after 3.5 years and 54k miles. I expect t the FFE to be better than that by the end of lease considering the battery is both larger (fewer cycle counts), and also has TMS.

My questions are (1) What is the expected full capacity of a FFE battery when new? Not talking the 33.5kwh, but the actual measurable usable capacity at 100% charge. (2) Will for scan measure this? if so, how? (3) Can I expect this number to be lower right now because we are getting into the cold temps of winter.

my car was manufactured in 9/17 and has 350mi on it right now.

Thanks,
Jonathan

 

[jmueller065]

Using Forscan look at the BECM (Battery control module). I forget what the value is but it will be pretty obvious.

That value is really only a calculated value, however.

If you really want to measure it do a run down test: Turn on the enhanced trip meter, on a full charge reset it, open all the windows and turn on max heat and let it run down to empty. The trip meter will show you how much.

It should be about 80% of the 33kWh (10% on the bottom and 10% on the top--yes Ford does indeed leave about 10% on either end; at least they did with the smaller battery. They were very conservative).

 

[spirilis]

The calculated value I was getting at 5K miles was ~28.08kwh or so. Haven't done a run-down test yet. It's already at 12K now... on target to do probably 30K by the end of the 1st year!

 

[triangles]

Yes the cold will reduce the capacity but it will come back when it gets warm out. You get a double whammy because you'll also be using battery and cabin heat which will further impact your range.

 

[davideos]

After I had my 2012 battery replaced with a 2017 battery, I used the trip-o-meter to determine the battery capacity to be 30KWhs. I recently completed a round trip of 92miles with 10 miles to spare. Relatively flat ground at a constant 65mph. My 2012 battery did suffer significantly from degradation...at least 15% over 4.5 years and 45k miles.

 

[campfamily]

After I had my 2012 battery replaced with a 2017 battery, I used the trip-o-meter to determine the battery capacity to be 30KWhs. I recently completed a round trip of 92miles with 10 miles to spare. Relatively flat ground at a constant 65mph. My 2012 battery did suffer significantly from degradation...at least 15% over 4.5 years and 45k miles.

davideos - what happened to your car that caused Ford to replace the battery?

Keith

 

[triangles]

Coolant leaked inside his battery ruining it.

 

[campfamily]

Coolant leaked inside his battery ruining it.

Hmmmm.....wonder how one could have that happen? I'd sure like to have the higher capacity battery in my car!!! :twisted:

 

[davideos]

No, I don't think it was a coolant leak...no indication of that. I had an issue with the battery in year 2. Shipped to Ford and subsequently shipped back. I don't know the reason this second time either, but it shipped to Ford and they declared it dead and they replaced it with a 2017 battery. Likely because they either don't make the old battery anymore or they have found a potential issue with the old battery. When I got the car back, the battery was listed on the invoice as being over $20k.

I had a coolant problem following the replacement as Ford forgot to refill the coolant after the battery replacement. The pump that cycles fluid through the battery and the charging circuit was basically empty and the charger would get too hot and subsequently shut-down. I finally figured it out and added Ford Coolant to make the issue go away, but I still had to take it back to Ford to purge the air out of the cabin heater loop. Fortunately, the weather was good and the battery itself doesn't get too hot when running. But charging is another story...that circuit heats up quickly. When it does, it throttles the charge rate and will eventually stop charging with a fault. I purchased the OBDLink MX and downloaded the Forscan software to see all this going on....good to have as a diagnostic tool as the car does things on its own without telling the operator.

 

[triangles]

Oops. My mistake. There was someone else who had it replaced because coolant leaked inside the battery.

 

[adnan1980]

After I had my 2012 battery replaced with a 2017 battery, I used the trip-o-meter to determine the battery capacity to be 30KWhs. I recently completed a round trip of 92miles with 10 miles to spare. Relatively flat ground at a constant 65mph. My 2012 battery did suffer significantly from degradation...at least 15% over 4.5 years and 45k miles.

davidoes : How does the battery meter look when you had 15% degradation, does it like not show up fully charged? I am at 47500 miles on my 2015 FFE, I am trying to see if any degradation, I am not sure how to truly figure it out. When I run battery health it says good.

 

[tkdbrusco]

The calculated value I was getting at 5K miles was ~28.08kwh or so. Haven't done a run-down test yet. It's already at 12K now... on target to do probably 30K by the end of the 1st year!

Just ran mine using the Forscan app and here's what I got. I think I was actually at 99% for some reason. Probably cause the car had been sitting at 100% charge for about 10 hours and I had pulled it out of the garage and moved it around for us to charge our Leaf...

Anyways, found how to get the readings in the App and it was 27.85 kWh at 99%, which should correspond to about 28.13 at 100% or just about what you had after 5K miles. From what others were saying, there's no way that this car has 10% buffers above and below. First and foremost, I found a setting in the app that gave me total charge and it was just over 93% (when the car was displaying 99%), so call it 6-7% top buffer. 28.13 as a ratio of 33.5 is 84%, so that's about 16% extra split between the top and bottom of the pack.

What I find strange is the amount of power it takes when charging compared to what I've actually used. For example, I drove to work today just after taking the reading and left home with 99% and arriving to work with 74% (25% decrease) but the car took 9.19 kWh from the charger while I was there to get back to 100% charge. Well that corresponds to 36.76 possible if charged from 0-100%. Granted I know that when plugged in it will pull power for other purposed and be less than efficient for cell balancing, etc... Just wondering why the extra draw if I clearly didn't use 9.19 kWh to get from home to work. According to myfordmobile I drew 7.7kwh over that same distance.

I don't want to get crazy with these stats like I was with my Leaf. My main goal is to get a baseline and then to measure my degradation over the three years of leasing the car. If my degradation is <8% or so at 45k miles, I'll consider buying it at lease end, but if it's >10% maybe not. My leaf degraded by 11% between the day I bought it and the 54K miles and 3.5 years I drove it.

 

[bettyinverter]

hi, everybody, i am a new memeber, also interested in Focus cars, but not know much about the car. I hope to learn more from here.

Betty
http://www.yiyen.com

 

[campfamily]

What I find strange is the amount of power it takes when charging compared to what I've actually used. For example, I drove to work today just after taking the reading and left home with 99% and arriving to work with 74% (25% decrease) but the car took 9.19 kWh from the charger while I was there to get back to 100% charge. According to myfordmobile I drew 7.7kwh over that same distance.

Don't forget that the charging process is not 100% efficient. For each kWh you take from the charger, you should only expect about 85% of that to actually end up "filling" your battery. 9.19 * .85 = 7.81.....

Keith

 

[spirilis]

What I find strange is the amount of power it takes when charging compared to what I've actually used. For example, I drove to work today just after taking the reading and left home with 99% and arriving to work with 74% (25% decrease) but the car took 9.19 kWh from the charger while I was there to get back to 100% charge. According to myfordmobile I drew 7.7kwh over that same distance.

Don't forget that the charging process is not 100% efficient. For each kWh you take from the charger, you should only expect about 85% of that to actually end up "filling" your battery. 9.19 * .85 = 7.81.....

Keith

Yeah I figured that out eventually... and at least during the hot weather, DC fast charging at 125A ends up being only ~80-82% efficient (probably due to the chiller running a lot).
edit: lol I didn't write that apparently, but the quote made it look like I did? Either way... good to know

 

[cecil-t]

I don't think there is a built-in "buffer zone" like people think. I think it's the difference between the max kWh rating and the nominal rating. Nominal is what you'll actually see / measure. Battery guys I talk to in the industry seem to feel the max rating is pretty much a made up number for the purposes of claiming tax credits and such. I mean not literally made up but it doesn't relate to the usable capacity in any sense. That's the one manufacturers advertise.