Most Life-time miles - Does anyone have 50,000 miles yet?

[Rosebank]

My 2012 FFE with be turning 25,000 miles (40,000 km) this week. My car sat for two years on a lot before I took delivery about 14 months ago and I am adding 1,500 miles a month. I am hoping to see a life time range of 200,000 miles and 10 years battery life.

What is your model year and mileage? Thoughts on actual battery life?

 

[jmueller065]

2013: 22,000 miles so far.

 

[Rosebank]

I searched this question for LEAF and it appears a a LEAF has passed 100,000 miles.

http://insideevs.com/first-nissan-leaf-in-u-s-passes-100000-miles/

 

[michael]

I should hit 50,000 in about six months. By that time I expect the usable battery capacity to be somewhere in the 16's

 

[noflipping]

2014 - 17,000 miles in 9 months. No problems at all. Couldn't be happier.

 

[damania]

It's not about miles. The battery will lose charge over time, not from how much you use it.

 

[michael]

It's both, plus the storage conditions (temperature, charge level)

 

[v_traveller]

It's not about miles. The battery will lose charge over time, not from how much you use it.

Googling "battery life as a function of cycle" will net a number of articles that say otherwise. Based on reading some of this stuff, I'd say that a battery will lose capacity as a function of charge/discharge cycle count.

Oh yeah.... 31.5K miles so far.

 

[damania]

It's time more than anything else. Same thing with laptop batteries.

Read the comments:
http://insideevs.com/100000-mile-nissan-leaf-taxi-shows-12-5-battery-degradation/

 

[jmueller065]

It's time more than anything else. Same thing with laptop batteries.

Not necessarily, it seems more nuanced than that.

According to that battery aging model link in those comments (here: http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model). Time does have a term in the equation but it would appear that temperature has a greater affect. There is even this quote from that model:

Both calendar capacity loss and cycling capacity loss are temperature dependent

Also note that all of that data is for batteries in use. There is no discussion of what the aging loss would be for a battery sitting on the shelf. (We do have owners on here with FFE's that sat in the dealer lot for over a year before they obtained them; if any of them happen to have the OBD MX dongle I'd be interested in seeing their ETE values.)

 

[michael]

Also note that all of that data is for batteries in use. There is no discussion of what the aging loss would be for a battery sitting on the shelf. (We do have owners on here with FFE's that sat in the dealer lot for over a year before they obtained them; if any of them happen to have the OBD MX dongle I'd be interested in seeing their ETE values.)

Jeffery Dahn who is a well known professor of electrochemistry and who was recently hired by Tesla as a battery expert has commented on that. He has said that he has kept lithium batteries in cold storage at low levels of charge for years and then found them to be in very good condition.

Laptop batteries die because they are generally kept at a high level of charge.

In a response to a letter, Dahn had replied...

I THINK THAT IF YOU ARE KEEPING THE CELLS BELOW 4.0V (NO WAY FOR YOU TO TELL THAT, HOWEVER) THE BATTERY LIFE WILL BE VERY IMPRESSIVE. WE ARE TESTING CELLS BUILT IN 2002 THAT HAVE 2002 TECHNOLOGY (LIFETIME IS BETTER NOW) THAT STILL HAVE 75% OF THEIR INITIAL CAPACITY (CYCLCED AT 37c THE WHOLE TIME). THESE CELLS WERE CHARGED ONLY TO 4.075V. MODERN CELLS LIKE THOSE IN TESLA CHARGED TO 4.0V SHOULD LAST A FEW DECADES, I SUSPECT, WITHOUT ANY ISSUE (SO KEEP YOUR CAR FROM RUSTING!). WHERE IS 4.0V RELATIVE TO STATE OF CHARGE? MAYBE 75%

and


KEEPING BELOW 4.0V MAY DOUBLE OR TRIPLE LIFE TIME COMPARED TO A FULL CHARGE EVERY CYCLE, I SUSPECT

 

[hybridbear]

We do have owners on here with FFE's that sat in the dealer lot for over a year before they obtained them; if any of them happen to have the OBD MX dongle I'd be interested in seeing their ETE values.

Our FFE was manufactured in November of 2012 and originally leased in August of 2013. We acquired it in July of 2014 with only 4000 miles on the odometer. We now have about 14,500 miles on the odometer. I've posted ETE info in the HVB thread.

 

[FFEINKY]

I will hit 50k this week. I drive about 600 miles per week and as of this writing I have 49595 miles on the Odometer. My battery capacity has taken a huge hit. It is roughly down to 16 kWh usable in its current state. I believe that I lead all other FFE's in the country mileage wise. I drive a 2012 Black FFE that I purchased in January of 2014 that barely had 1000 miles on it when I drove it off the lot. I had the SSN problem that took roughly 3 months to remedy and I have driven it flawlessly since May 2014. So I have put many miles on it in less than 2 years and besides the battery capacity loss I am happy to report there has been zero other problems. I have modified the back of the hatch compartment recently and now carry around a portable Powerhorse 2000 watt generator permanently in the back of the car. I removed the storage compartment for the air pump and 110 evse and fabricated my own steel box and mounted it under the car to set the generator inside. So I don't worry as much now watching my miles tick away faster than they used to. I had initially planned to put 100 k miles on this car but I don't believe the battery capacity will allow that to happen unless some 240 volt chargers pop up on I-64 here in Kentucky between Louisville and Frankfort. And I don't plan to hold my breath on that one here in a coal state.

 

[michael]

I'm right at 48K, so a month behind you. My experience is directly in line with yours, down to mid-15s in usable capacity. For that reason, I'm using the Volt much more now. I will finish up with the FFE (58,500 mile lease) when the weather warms up.

Like you, other than capacity fade no repairs or maintenance issues other than tires. It's a good car, just needs more range and better battery longevity.

Ford could have provided better battery longevity with simple software changes that could be user selected when desired...

1. Lower charge level as an option (4 V or lower)
2. Lower battery temperature as an option (98 F good for performance, bad for longevity)

BTW my ETE estimate is still in the 17's. One cannot rely on it as a measure of battery capacity...do a test. And like you, my battery has taken a HUGE hit over the last few months. Looking back at this thread, six months ago I predicted my capacity to be in the 16's at 50K miles. In fact it's well into the 15's at 48K

 

[scottt]

I will hit 50k this week. I drive about 600 miles per week and as of this writing I have 49595 miles on the Odometer. My battery capacity has taken a huge hit. It is roughly down to 16 kWh usable in its current state. I believe that I lead all other FFE's in the country mileage wise. I drive a 2012 Black FFE that I purchased in January of 2014 that barely had 1000 miles on it when I drove it off the lot. I had the SSN problem that took roughly 3 months to remedy and I have driven it flawlessly since May 2014. So I have put many miles on it in less than 2 years and besides the battery capacity loss I am happy to report there has been zero other problems. I have modified the back of the hatch compartment recently and now carry around a portable Powerhorse 2000 watt generator permanently in the back of the car. I removed the storage compartment for the air pump and 110 evse and fabricated my own steel box and mounted it under the car to set the generator inside. So I don't worry as much now watching my miles tick away faster than they used to. I had initially planned to put 100 k miles on this car but I don't believe the battery capacity will allow that to happen unless some 240 volt chargers pop up on I-64 here in Kentucky between Louisville and Frankfort. And I don't plan to hold my breath on that one here in a coal state.

Curious. How much of a hit would the battery have to take (capacity-wise) for the 8 year warranty to kick in?

 

[triangles]

Curious. How much of a hit would the battery have to take (capacity-wise) for the 8 year warranty to kick in?

At least on my 2014 the warranty specifically says something to the effect that there is no capacity guarantee since decreasing capacity is normal with use/age. So I would think something like a cell would have to completely fail for the warranty to kick in since there is no capacity guarantee.

 

[michael]

That's the way I understand it as well. I'm not flipped because I only have 10K more miles and I will be OK through then.

 

[jmueller065]

Question: How much of your battery degradation do think came from:

• Using the battery deeper every day vs
• Age related degradation

e.g. does the fact that you use a higher percentage of the battery daily have a greater affect than the simple passing of time? My suspicion is that the high mileage cars use more battery more frequently that wears out the battery faster....

I ask out of curiosity and the fact that I'm approaching 30,000 miles after 2.5 years now and my car hasn't really shown any signs of significant degradation (it is possible I have some but nothing noticeable). In my usage case I rarely go over 50% of the battery consumed daily (even in winter).

It isn't that big of an issue for me since in another 6 month's I'll have a fresh new battery inside a fresh new car...

 

[michael]

I'm sure that both are factors. Temperatures are also a factor.

I generally don't deeply deplete my battery, especially so when it was new and fresh. My daily commute is 40 miles each way, and I have workplace charging. So I was relatively easy on it in that regard (maybe 60% DOD when new, more now).

My car has been in service about 30 months. I haven't heard of other people with the same age battery but fewer miles seeing as much fade. You are an example of that..same age, fewer miles, still looking OK.

So I'm guessing that both are factors, but that 50 K miles is stressing the battery. It's been through roughly 700 equivalent full charge cycles (although the actual number is probably something like 1000 shallow cycles)

 

[jmueller065]

It's been through roughly 700 equivalent full charge cycles (although the actual number is probably something like 1000 shallow cycles)

Ah yeah the 3rd factor I didn't think of: charge cycles. Really only 700? (365 days a year? once cycle a day = ~700 for 2 years)

I'd guess I'm at around 650 shallow charge cycles (2.5 years, 5 charges a week, 52 weeks give or take the extra on a few weekends minus a few weeks from vacations..).