Woes of winter range

[rabar10]

Have had my FFE for just over 2 years now. Yesterday was pretty cold here in the Midwest -- was barely above zero F in the morning, around 15 in the afternoon and then actually warmed up a bit to 20 in the late evening. Car was in the garage, fully charged and preconditioned to either 65 or 72 (I forget which one it's set on). While driving, climate control was set to auto and 68F.

- Drive in to work was 11.9 miles. MFM online shows 5.3kWh consumed, so 445Wh/mi. All roads were clear of snow.
- There was a short (1.0 mile there and 1.0 mile back, according to Google Maps) trip to grab something for lunch, that wasn't captured in the MFM online vehicle trip log report for yesterday. So not sure how many Wh/kWh consumed there. Probably high Wh/mi since the car had cooled off and I don't think the cabin heater ever came off the 5kW mark. Assuming 500Wh/mi, let's say 1kWh consumed in those 2 miles.
- Drive to gym at late afternoon, 6.8 miles, MFM online shows 3.0kWh consumed, so 441Wh/mi.
- Drive home in evening, 9.2 miles, MFM online shows .38kWh consumed, so 413Wh/mi.
- Pulled into garage with either 5 or 6 miles remaining. Assuming it was 6 miles left and 400Wh/mi, that would be 2.4kWh usable left in the pack.

That's a grand total of ~30 miles driven in the day, and a total of ~36 miles 'available'. Woof.

Also shows ~15.5kWh available for use in the winter. I know that number is closer to 20kWh in the summer.

Is my math wrong? Should I not rely on the MFM numbers or is it leaving something out? And are other people seeing 35-40 miles usable in wintertime?

I know I can save energy by turning the cabin heat down/off, cranking seat heater up, bundle up with gloves/hat, using just enough defrost to keep the windshield clear, etc. -- I spent the first winter with the car playing that game. But most people aren't willing to voluntarily do that, and I'm less and less willing to do it now. (I knew I'd make it home so I didn't bother yesterday.)

 

[michael]

Unfortunately this is looking about right, depending on how many miles you have on the car and what speed your commute averages. Can you give us more info?

For example, if you are in the car for an hour and pulling 6 kW, poof there's a lot of energy used. On cold (for Southern California!!!!!) days, I'm showing usable capacity in the 14's, but usually in the 15's

35 miles at, say, 250 kW/mi would be 8.7, plus another 6 kW to the crappy heater, and you're pretty close to what you are seeing, 15 kWh

 

[rabar10]

Unfortunately this is looking about right, depending on how many miles you have on the car and what speed your commute averages. Can you give us more info?

20k miles, and commute speed is 40-50. No interstates. I have seen low 200s Wh/mi on the commute in the summertime.

Capacity loss due to cold temps + too many constant kW for cabin heating = less than half the summertime range.

Something else that bugs me -- the use of a traditional liquid heater core and intermediate fluid to do heating/cooling. I know it's part of the conversion from the Focus ICE line but it annoys me. If I'm burning electrons instead of fuel to heat the cabin, it should work like a big hair dryer -- I want instant heat gosh-darn-it!

(Honestly, I love my car -- I really do -- but when people ask "how far does it go on a charge" and the answer is "somewhere between 35 and 90 miles, depending on weather and driving", that's a big range and the lower number causes a lot of cringing...)

 

[hybridbear]

Car was in the garage, fully charged and preconditioned to either 65 or 72 (I forget which one it's set on). While driving, climate control was set to auto and 68F.

Have you tried preheating to 85F? That's what we do in the winter and it helps versus 72. Do you have a L2 EVSE? What's your EVSE's maximum power output?

 

[WattsUp]

the answer is "somewhere between 35 and 90 miles, depending on weather and driving", that's a big range and the lower number causes a lot of cringing...)

Never mind that most people don't drive further than 30 miles from home any given day.

 

[rabar10]

Have you tried preheating to 85F? That's what we do in the winter and it helps versus 72.

I'll change it to 85F and see what that does to Wh/mi for the morning part of the commute.

Do you have a L2 EVSE? What's your EVSE's maximum power output?

Using the supplied L1 EVSE right now -- I have a Clipper Creek L2 EVSE that is not yet installed (no space in current breaker panel; looking at using local utility's "special EV plan" which would install a separate 40A meter and panel and apply time-of-use rates to that meter, but I haven't finished that yet.

Never mind that most people don't drive further than 30 miles from home any given day.

Including me, but if it wasn't for my wife's ICE I would have gotten a Volt instead of the FFE. Tomorrow I need to drive 80 miles away and then back, so will swap cars to make it happen. We swap cars maybe once a month for stuff like that.

 

[breeves002]

The L1 may not even be able to pre-heat the car depending on the ambient temperature... Get that L2 installed! Can't you use the mini breakers that have two circuits in one breaker slot? Or do you have only 100a service? 100a service could be an issue if you're running the dryer and AC with everything else while charging.

I drive about 50 miles round trip for my commute. 90% highway. In the summer I use between 30-40% battery each way with the AC on. In the winter depending on the temperature, its between 40-60% with the heat on. I haven't used over 60% yet, even on the day it was 17ºF here. I always preheat to 85f on my L2 though. I have free L2 charging at work so I have it full for my drive home.

 

[CWD]

My winter time range has really fallen off. I'm averaging 48 miles fully charged w/ pre-conditioning the cabin. I use a level 2-240vac/16 amp power cord at home and have a GE Dura-station at work that is capable of 30 amps but at 208vac. Charge times seem about equal-2.5 hours on each end of my trip. The power cord at home seems like it may not be fully charging the pack or the pre-conditioning is using some of the pack juice as sometimes the range is less than 46 miles. Very temperature dependent. We have had some really cold days lately. So cold that I drove the gas guzzler PT Cruiser. A large part of my drive is out in the country and no place I'd want to run low on charge.

 

[jmueller065]

My winter time range has really fallen off. I'm averaging 48 miles fully charged w/ pre-conditioning the cabin. I use a level 2-240vac/16 amp power cord at home and have a GE Dura-station at work that is capable of 30 amps but at 208vac. Charge times seem about equal-2.5 hours on each end of my trip. The power cord at home seems like it may not be fully charging the pack or the pre-conditioning is using some of the pack juice as sometimes the range is less than 46 miles. Very temperature dependent. We have had some really cold days lately. So cold that I drove the gas guzzler PT Cruiser. A large part of my drive is out in the country and no place I'd want to run low on charge.

Oh yeah: When its really cold yes preconditioning does use some juice from the battery and all it can from the EVSE.

Just search my blog for "winter" and you'll find tons of posts about that (and cold LOL): https://spareelectrons.wordpress.com/

 

[triangles]

rabar10
The L1 can only supply 1.44kW and the heater uses 5+ kW so you are using battery power to pre-condition. You should be getting 45-50miles if you use pre-conditioning and a level 2 charger. Not all L2 charge stations can even supply full heater power. For example CWD's L2 EVSE is only 16A that's only 3.84kW In that case you'd want to maybe set the go time for 1/2 hour before you go so the L2 can top off the battery again. Your case with the L1 EVSE makes it even worse.

Monday it is forecast to be 24F when I have to drive 56 mi for work. To me I think this is on the harry edge of almost being doable. I do have a L2 charge station that is 25mi into that trip but I'd prefer not to have to use it. Unless I don't think I'll make it the remaining 30ish miles. I am taking the extreme measures of preconditioning in a heated garage and am only using a 12v fan/heater to keep the frost off the windshield. I find cracking the front windows 1/8th to 1/4 of an inch greatly reduces window fogging but also makes it cold I also plan to keep speeds 50mph or under if possible.

 

[Jamez]

I don't know if it's been mentioned or pointed out, but "It's cold outside - plug the vehicle in" warning does show up for me often these days. Whilst parked - plugged in or not - the FFE will condition the battery - consuming the traction pack's available charge.

I've seen a loss of 5kms range over 8 hours at -16C (sorry, I don't know American )

Having said that, with preconditioning, good driving practices and micromanaging the defroster, I'm able to keep my kWh/km down and see decent range.

 

[triangles]

I don't know if it's been mentioned or pointed out, but "It's cold outside - plug the vehicle in" warning does show up for me often these days. Whilst parked - plugged in or not - the FFE will condition the battery - consuming the traction pack's available charge.

I"m pretty sure this isn't true. I left my FFE parked from before Thanksgiving thru 12/27. It had about a half charge when I parked it and and still had about a half charge when awakened from her slumber.

On a side note: I just completed nearly a 55mi (google said 55mi, trip meter indicated a few less) journey at 28F and had 32% battery left and 25mi on the GoM (That's about 88km at -2C and 40km for our friendly neighbors to the north ). I achieved this by pulling out all the tricks up my sleeves. Charged, preheated to 85F 1/2hr before leaving, all in a heated garage. Absolutely zero heater use. Cracked passenger window and used a cheap ass harbor freight 12v fan/heater for about 1/4 of the drive to keep at least a peep hole clear out of the windshield. After that the windshield stayed clear with the passenger window cracked. No heated seat usage. Kept speeds at mostly 45mph or less. There was about 15 miles I had to go 55mph which caused Wh/mi to go into the 260's Over all average for the trip 247 Wh/mi. Before attempting this I would not have thought it possible. My winter norms are usually pushing 400Wh/mi

 

[WattsUp]

Whilst parked - plugged in or not - the FFE will condition the battery - consuming the traction pack's available charge.

I"m pretty sure this isn't true.

It isn't true.

The FFE will only condition the battery when it is plugged in or the ignition is turned on.

When the FFE is not plugged in and the ignition is turned off, the battery will eventually assume the ambient temperature (which can be verified using an OBD scanning app like ForSCAN to check various internal temperature sensor readings).

 

[kalel14]

On a side note: I just completed nearly a 55mi...journey at 28F ... Absolutely zero heater use. Cracked passenger window ...to keep at least a peep hole clear out of the windshield. ... No heated seat usage. Kept speeds at mostly 45mph or less.

It took over a hundred years, but there's finally a Ford as comfortable to take on a winter drive as the Model T was.

 

[Jamez]

You guys have had yours longer and dug into it further, but on 3 separate occasions I have returned to the car 8 hours later during -16C ambient temperature to have between 2 to 5 km's range lost.

If that's the traction pack returning to ambient and becoming less efficient (or needing to be heated again when started) then that's what it is I guess. But there IS a loss from sitting in the cold without it being plugged in.

 

[jmueller065]

You guys have had yours longer and dug into it further, but on 3 separate occasions I have returned to the car 8 hours later during -16C ambient temperature to have between 2 to 5 km's range lost.

If that's the traction pack returning to ambient and becoming less efficient (or needing to be heated again when started) then that's what it is I guess. But there IS a loss from sitting in the cold without it being plugged in.

Sure: 1. its colder, and 2. the battery is now colder and it has to use battery to heat it up.

 

[triangles]

Jamez, I won't say this for certain as I'm no battery expert but I am drawing on my knowledge of and experience with lithium ion batteries in general. The biggest area where I could be wrong is the assumption that the FFE's battery behaves the same as my general knowledge and experience with other lithium ion batteries. The perceived capacity drops off exponentially the more below freezing the battery temp gets. I say perceived because as a cold lithium battery heats back up thru usage (internal resistance increases the colder the battery is) that "lost" capacity comes back. I don't know how the GoM works so maybe it is seeing some of this "lost" capacity? And you are absolutely correct that you will lose a little bit as a cold soaked battery is also heated by the battery heaters when the FFE is next turned on. I may be wrong but I think you over estimate the lost ranged based on what I have mentioned above. Also FYI all batteries eventually self discharge if left to sitting unused. That is why we put 12v trickle chargers on the 12v battery of equipment that doesn't get used over the winter. Lithium Ion self discharge rate is significantly lower than lead-acid batteries. So much so that no trickle charger is necessary for a stored lithium battery. Your FFE traction battery if left to sit for a year would only lose a couple percent of it's charge. So yes you take a small range penalty if you leave your FFE unplugged out in the cold but the traction battery will not drain completely even if you leave it for months. However, since the electronics pull a constant load on the 12v battery you've got about a month before it will be dead and you'll require a jump start.

 

[triangles]

It took over a hundred years, but there's finally a Ford as comfortable to take on a winter drive as the Model T was.

I dunno I think they still have some work to do to get the ventilation as good as a model T. :lol:

 

[WattsUp]

You guys have had yours longer and dug into it further, but on 3 separate occasions I have returned to the car 8 hours later during -16C ambient temperature to have between 2 to 5 km's range lost.

Yes, this was probably because the battery simply got COLDER between those two points in time.

It is a matter of physics and chemistry that batteries do not perform as well as they get colder. Further, there is one thing that performs worse than a cold battery: An even colder battery.

The effect I'm talking about is dynamic: the energy potential of a battery is not a "static" thing, changing only when energy is explicitly consumed. Instead, as the battery temperature decreases, the car will measure less and less voltage at the battery, compute less energy available, and thus estimate a shorter range. Conversely, if the battery temperature increases between two points in time, the measured voltage will increase, the car will compute increased energy available, and estimate a longer range.

Again, this isn't a function of some absolute amount of energy somehow being "moved" out of (or into) the battery... it is an intrinsic function of the battery just getting colder (or warmer), chemistry and physical properties changing, and the resulting decrease (or increase) in the battery's potential for releasing energy.

Managing battery performance in extreme weather is one of the things that the "GO Time" feature is for... to give the car time (and extra power) to heat (or cool) the battery just before you want to drive, adjusting the battery temperature closer to an optimal level, and improving its performance.

 

[J_PATT]

I have a 2016 and the winter range is terrible. I have a 42-mile commute and with preconditioning and keeping the heater at 65*f I still end up getting to my office with ~7-8 miles of range left. A far cry from 40 miles left during the summer. My drive is mostly 55-65 mph on the highway. It is making me reconsider the car.