CCS Conversions

[Texas FFE]

This thread is about CCS conversions, not batteries. I wish you guys would quit posting on batteries, there are other threads devoted to batteries. I also wish people would quit thinking of EVs as disposable once the warranties run out.

Elon Musk stated that people could get a million miles out of his Teslas. There is no reason we can't get as many miles out of our FFEs if the commitment is there to keep our FFEs running. Upgrades like CCS would make our existing FFEs much more useful and and increase our commitment to keep them running.

I will say this about battery degradation, it's expected!! EV owners need to plan on replacing/upgrading their batteries occasionally if they have any kind of commitment to their EVs. Replacement batteries are already available from the dealers and aftermarket batteries will become available as soon as there is a significant market for replacement batteries.

 

[Texas FFE]

Replacing my FFE with a 2017 FFE just because 2017 FFE has CCS...

Technically, it also has a much larger capacity battery, that results in much greater range, too.

The battery is a completely different issue. I expect to be able to get a 33.5 kWh replacement battery once my 2013 FFE battery needs to be replaced. So I don't see the larger battery as a reason to buy a whole new car.

 

[michael]

The 8 year warranty covers failure, not fading.

Correct.

What I meant to imply is that if Ford is willing to warranty the battery for that long, even against failure, the car's useful life is not likely to be over by then.

That is in contrast to fbitz777's opinion that an FFE won't be "usable" after even 7 years. Mine is going on 4 years, 50K miles, and is still very useful.

I am happy to agree that apart from the battery the FFE seems very durable and required essentially no maintenance. However the bumper-to-bumper warranty is pretty much industry standard...three years, 36,000 miles. The battery warranty is mandated by law.

IMO the very obvious battery fade was the lifetime limiter. Almost everything else about the car was "like new" when I turned it in.

I think a CCS retrofit makes no sense....far better to replace the car with a 2017

 

[jmueller065]

I think a CCS retrofit makes no sense....far better to replace the car with a 2017

I tend to agree with this observation as well. Small batteries aren't sell suited for CCS anyway so it makes much more sense when you get a 2017 with its bigger battery and CCS.

 

[Texas FFE]

I think a CCS retrofit makes no sense....far better to replace the car with a 2017

I tend to agree with this observation as well. Small batteries aren't sell suited for CCS anyway so it makes much more sense when you get a 2017 with its bigger battery and CCS.

You guys are so narrow minded. What's going to happen to that FFE that you disposed of? Do you think that FFE is going straight to FFE heaven? Well it's not.

That FFE is going to get sold, probably many times over, to someone that wants an EV but doesn't want to pay the price of a new EV. So that EV that no longer has value to you has a lot of value to someone else. If a professional CCS upgrade can be done at a reasonable cost then it makes a LOT more sense to upgrade than to buy new.

As far as the comment regarding smaller batteries not suited for CCS, that's ridiculous. A car with smaller battery actually has a much greater need for CCS to affectively increase it's range. Your comments are so ridiculous it makes me question the motives behind your comments, why are you trying so hard to make people buy a new car as opposed to making their old cars better?

 

[jmueller065]

You guys are so narrow minded. What's going to happen to that FFE that you disposed of? Do you think that FFE is going straight to FFE heaven? Well it's not.

Not heaven: Will eventually be scrapped and the battery (hopefully recycled).

Before that though, yes it will go through owner after owner before finally being scrapped. During that time the battery capacity will continue to drop (making the reason for CCS less and less as the Level 2 will be able to charge it up just fine).

Furthermore: As it passes from owner to owner the price for each owner will also drop over time making the relative difference between the cost of the car and the cost of the CCS upgrade more and more prohibitive. Ultimately the car will probably be driven by some hapless college student who only paid about $500 for it and only drives it about 20 miles before having to recharge it. It makes no sense for that college student to pay $5000 for a CCS upgrade to his $500 car!?

 

[michael]

I think a CCS retrofit makes no sense....far better to replace the car with a 2017

I tend to agree with this observation as well. Small batteries aren't sell suited for CCS anyway so it makes much more sense when you get a 2017 with its bigger battery and CCS.

You guys are so narrow minded. What's going to happen to that FFE that you disposed of? Do you think that FFE is going straight to FFE heaven? Well it's not.

That FFE is going to get sold, probably many times over, to someone that wants an EV but doesn't want to pay the price of a new EV. So that EV that no longer has value to you has a lot of value to someone else. If a professional CCS upgrade can be done at a reasonable cost then it makes a LOT more sense to upgrade than to buy new.

As far as the comment regarding smaller batteries not suited for CCS, that's ridiculous. A car with smaller battery actually has a much greater need for CCS to affectively increase it's range. Your comments are so ridiculous it makes me question the motives behind your comments, why are you trying so hard to make people buy a new car as opposed to making their old cars better?

As the car gets older and more crippled by battery fade, it will be used for neighborhood travel, not for distance use. Modern 200 mile class cars will be used if distance is needed.

Adding CCS to a faded 2013 Focus such as mine was is fine as a hobby activity, but it doesn't make economic sense. It's like restoring a '73 Buick...an act of love but not of reason. If an when the day comes when FFE battery pack can be replaced (or better yet upgraded) at a reasonable cost then they won't depreciate as much as they (and other EVs) do...the remainder of the car will have value.

As it now stands, electric cars are a $15,000 battery with wheels. Not a criticism, not a condemnation...I will drive nothing else...but a reality.

 

[WattsUp]

I am happy to agree that apart from the battery the FFE seems very durable and required essentially no maintenance.

Most EVs will probably be that way... I think they just tend to stay "new-like" (probably from lack of vibration, and gasoline engine and other parts going through extreme temperature changes over and over).

But, is the FFE battery somehow "less durable" than that in any other EV? From everything I've heard, LEAFs are even "worse". If anything, the FFE battery should fare better than most, given the car's temperature management system.

I guess in a few years, we'll find out how well 8-year old FFEs are doing.

 

[michael]

I am happy to agree that apart from the battery the FFE seems very durable and required essentially no maintenance.

Most EVs will probably be that way... I think they just tend to stay "new-like" (probably from lack of vibration, and gasoline engine and other parts going through extreme temperature changes over and over).

But, is the FFE battery somehow "less durable" than that in any other EV? From everything I've heard, LEAFs are even "worse". If anything, the FFE battery should fare better than most, given the car's temperature management system.

I guess in a few years, we'll find out how well 8-year old FFEs are doing.

No, of course not. I never suggested that. The Leaf battery is horrible. The Ford battery fades like most others. There are a few exceptions: Volt, due to very low range of charge and good cooling; Honda due to battery chemistry (but poor cold-weather performance for the same reason)

Based on my experience 8 year old FFEs will be 40 mile cars in a world of 200-300 mile cars..

 

[WattsUp]

Based on my experience 8 year old FFEs will be 40 mile cars in a world of 200-300 mile cars..

Perhaps. But, my 4-year old FFE is still a 70-mile car (at least).

In another 4, though, you think the battery will have lost nearly half of its capacity? That would make the FFE a really poor performer, despite its battery pack temperature regulation system.

Nissan has said that 10-year LEAFs should still have about 75% of their original capacity, and a study of Tesla Roadsters showed they still had 85% of their original capacity after 100,000 miles.

 

[michael]

Yes, based on my experience I do think that. Mine was down 22% in three years/52000 miles. Your climate is somewhat milder than mine, this may be a factor, too.

How many kWh is your present capacity? When INL completes their testing, we will get a clear measurement, but for now I can only extrapolate my experience.

Nissan may have said that 10-year-old Leafs should have 75% of their original capacity, but it is obvious that very few do this well. They are infamous for this.

 

[EVA]

I've mulled this topic over for a while and I'm really confused. Texas, what are you trying to accomplish by adding CCS to an older car?

All CSS gets you is faster charging. It doesn't get you anything else, no more range, no improved performance, no more battery capacity - just the ability to charge faster.

And let's go down the path of faster charging. You realize that as the battery gets to a certain point, the high power has to be dialed back or you will ruin your batteries? And that point isn't at 80 or 90% charge - it is farther down the capacity. Lets be generous, you have a 60 mile battery right now. You run the battery down to 5 miles. And you plug it into CCS - or any high current fast charging connection. So for the first 20 or 30 minutes you can charge at full power and get to maybe 40 miles of range. But because you don't want to kill your battery, the charging has to taper off to arrive at that 60 mile range - so the last 20 miles will probably take another 20 minutes.

All total, this faster charging will give you maybe 60 miles in an hour of charging time.

What the heck does that buy you? You can't drive long distances in this scenario. The CCS chargers have to be every 50 miles on the road you are taking. So you can drive for an hour, then charge for an hour. Keep repeating. And you get someplace not too far away in a lot of time. Hey, even if I'm wrong and CCS could fully charge the car in a half hour - you're still a loooooong way from getting down the road very fast.

The only way CCS makes any sense in a car is if the battery has around 100 miles of range. Then you could actually drive someplace. And maybe make it a round trip. A car with 50 or 60 miles of range, it makes no sense at all.

Urban driving? I contend that a level 2 will do you just as much good as a high current charger. You're going someplace for a while. Like dinner or a movie. By the time that is over with, the car is charged more than enough at a level 2 station to get you back or on to your next stop.

And CCS is a long ways off from being as common as J1772 or level 2 charging. The costs for the infrastructure are far higher. Maybe in a few years they will be common, or not.

Adding CCS to the pre-2017 FFE just doesn't make sense from a practical standpoint or a future proofing standpoint. You will still be able to drive your 300,000 miles in the car with the charging technology you have right now.

I realize you are completely 100% committed to finding somebody to do this for you. I wish you luck. You've even gone down the cosmetic path of the quarter panel. Hey, have you thought about mounting points? I bet the 2017 panel won't fit a 2013 without significant modification. Think more about what CCS actually buys you. What will you do with it?

 

[fbitz777]

Not counting the fact that you'd have to remove the CCS conversion hardware any time you want to go to service at Ford dealer or void the existing warranty.

And counting for Ford for a retrofit or support on this has zero chance.

I'd rather put my hopes on Ford offering battery swaps and eventual upgrades but I see no estimates under 7 to 10k based on manufacturing costs.

Would be nice to get 7.5k fed credit on new batteries since some of us think we are dealing with a "battery on wheels"

 

[Texas FFE]

I went on http://parts.bartowford.com/auto-parts/2013/ford/focus/electric-trim/electric-engine and looked up all the parts I might need to replace to add CCS charging to my 2013 FFE. The following is a list of items with prices of what I would need to replace;

Fender: $249
Charging Port: $89
Charging Port Support: $77
Charging Door: $43
Battery Charger: $2291
Wiring Harness: $392

Total: $3140

The biggest hit is the Battery Charger. I'm assuming that the 2017 model uses a completely different battery charger but I won't know until I can get service manuals on the 2017 FFE. Anyway, this is a good start on what it will cost in parts to upgrade my 2013 to CCS.

 

[EVA]

And you forgot to add the price of the new larger battery. You are in at probably more like $15-18,000 to do that conversion. And you aren't even certain the conversion will work. For an additional 40 miles of range? Way smarter money is just buy a 2017, or something else.

And I just went to that same site - how did you find 2017 parts? There isn't even an option for a 2017 Focus yet. So you are basing this estimate on current FFE prices, and guessing they will be the same for the 2017?

 

[MirEgal]

For me it's simple economics. My current lease for my 2014 FFE runs out in a couple of months. My current payments are $230/month. Since I bought my car in 2014 prices have come done significantly. I can now lease a new 2017 FFE (with the longer range and fast charging) for approximately $208/month. A nice monthly savings and a new car to as well.