Coolant Level goes down when hot?

[thanhdaica1985]

I recently got my car back from the dealer due to an SSN issue. When I got it back, the coolant level was below the Min line and a week later I took it back so they could top it up. They filled it to Max line and I've been monitoring the coolant level since to make sure that there's no leak. I notice that after driving, the coolant level goes down a little below the Min line and when the engine is cold in the morning the coolant level goes back to a little below the Max line. Is this normal?

 

[kalel14]

No. Hot coolant expands.

 

[Heima]

Not to be snarky, but there is no engine in a FFE. Additionally, the coolant temperatures are nowhere near as hot as in an internal combustion engine The hoses that serve the degas bottles (coolant reservoirs) are much smaller than those that move the coolant through the pumps. There is a great possibility that there is an air bubble somewhere in your cooling system, and when the pumps are on, the flow causes a lower pressure area in the system. This draws coolant from the degas bottle. But when the pumps shut off, there is no flow, so no lower pressure, and the coolant refills the degas bottle.

You can see this happen with an internal combustion engine. With the engine cold, remove the radiator cap. Start the engine, and look at the coolant level in the radiator. It might drop a little. If you turn on the heater, it might drop a little more. As the engine heats up, the coolant does expand, but as soon as the thermostat opens, the level in the radiator drops again because there is much greater flow.

 

[thanhdaica1985]

Does any one know how to purge the air out on the FFE? I think I have an air bubble in my system. I can sometimes hear coolant movement and I've read somewhere that it means there's air inside. I've tried Forscan to turn on all pumps and turn all valves to 45 degrees and I think that improves things but I can still hear the coolant movement when I charge my battery. I assume there's air in the battery loop.

 

[Heima]

From the service manual:

Cooling System Filling and Bleeding
Activation
NOTE: Have an adequate amount of Motorcraft® Orange Antifreeze/Coolant ready to fill the cooling system. Once the
pumps are activated, the coolant level in the degas bottle will fall very quickly. Do not allow air into the cooling system. The
entire cooling system holds 15L (15.8 qt).
1. WARNING: Before beginning any service procedure in this section, REFER to Safety Warnings in
section 100-00 General Information. Failure to follow this instruction may result in serious personal injury.
Refer to: Engine Cooling System Health and Safety Precautions (100-00 General Information) .
2.(This is a picture of the foam cover being removed)
3. NOTE: Once the scan tool begins the coolant fill, verify 3 valves are at 50% (raised notch is in the middle) and 3
pumps are running by feeling that each pump is vibrating.
Using a scan tool, navigate to Cooling System Fill and follow the on-screen instructions.
4. Once the Cooling System Fill is complete, using a scan tool, navigate to Cooling System Purge/Degas and follow
the on-screen instructions.

Not that helpful. The coolant flush procedure is more comprehensive, but that is to get coolant out, not in.

Consider a vacuum bleeder. This one is cheap.
https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Cooling-System-Instructions-Carrying/dp/B074Q18J56
Its $28 on ebay.

These things work wonders. It uses shop air blown across a venturi to create a vacuum, that is attached to the top of the degas bottle. By putting a low-pressure environment there, the air (that is at atmospheric pressure) in the rest of the coolant system expands, and in doing so finds its way out of nooks and crannies. As the air leaves that spot, it is replaced with coolant. With the vacuum bleeder on, turn on the pumps and open the valves, and you should air pocket free in about 20 minutes.

 

[thanhdaica1985]

From the service manual:

Cooling System Filling and Bleeding
Activation
NOTE: Have an adequate amount of Motorcraft® Orange Antifreeze/Coolant ready to fill the cooling system. Once the
pumps are activated, the coolant level in the degas bottle will fall very quickly. Do not allow air into the cooling system. The
entire cooling system holds 15L (15.8 qt).
1. WARNING: Before beginning any service procedure in this section, REFER to Safety Warnings in
section 100-00 General Information. Failure to follow this instruction may result in serious personal injury.
Refer to: Engine Cooling System Health and Safety Precautions (100-00 General Information) .
2.(This is a picture of the foam cover being removed)
3. NOTE: Once the scan tool begins the coolant fill, verify 3 valves are at 50% (raised notch is in the middle) and 3
pumps are running by feeling that each pump is vibrating.
Using a scan tool, navigate to Cooling System Fill and follow the on-screen instructions.
4. Once the Cooling System Fill is complete, using a scan tool, navigate to Cooling System Purge/Degas and follow
the on-screen instructions.

Not that helpful. The coolant flush procedure is more comprehensive, but that is to get coolant out, not in.

Consider a vacuum bleeder. This one is cheap.
https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Cooling-System-Instructions-Carrying/dp/B074Q18J56
Its $28 on ebay.

These things work wonders. It uses shop air blown across a venturi to create a vacuum, that is attached to the top of the degas bottle. By putting a low-pressure environment there, the air (that is at atmospheric pressure) in the rest of the coolant system expands, and in doing so finds its way out of nooks and crannies. As the air leaves that spot, it is replaced with coolant. With the vacuum bleeder on, turn on the pumps and open the valves, and you should air pocket free in about 20 minutes.

So for part 3, in Forscan that will be 0 degree right? In Forscan the command for the valves are from -45 degree to 45 degree. It's not a percentage value. Btw, I did see bubbles coming from the bottom hose of the degas tank. So I think definitely there's air in the system. I took it back today and showed the foreman the bubble, he looked at me dumb-founded and asked "What do you want me to do?". It was so obviously that I wanted the bubbles out of the cooling system. This is my first and last Ford car ever. Seriously, I will advise people against the electric truck or SUV they are promising.

 

[Heima]

I am sorry that you are not having any good luck with your situation.
I do not have full access to Forscan, but your logic sounds good.
0 would be midway between -45 and 45.
Set the three valves to that midpoint, turn the three pumps to highest speed, and let it run for 20minutes.
Check the level in the degas bottle during the run and top up as necessary.
If you do not have the exact same coolant, use distilled water.
When the pumps encounter an air bubble, they speed up and make a rattle type sound.
Without the vacuum bleeder, it might take an hour of pump running to get all the bubbles out.
And it might not get all of the air out.

 

[thanhdaica1985]

So Future Ford of Sacramento finally got the bubble out of my FFE. There's no more bubble now. I am still angry at the way they handled the situation. According to my work order for the SSN issue. They stated that they vacuum-filled the cooling system. But apparently that's not the same as burping the system or I don't know why but there were still bubbles in the system. And the foreman treated me like I'm crazy when I took it back and showed him the bubbles. He acted like I was a difficult person to work with while the only thing I'm asking them to do is to have them re-burp the system. I showed him a picture of the reservoir with foams build up when I first got the car back after the SSN repair. And he said that Ford Motor doesn't let him do anything because of a picture, he has to see it. That's *********. My adviser has to submit pictures to Ford for warranty claims all the time. Him seeing it doesn't actually play any role in whether or not Ford will pay them. Plus this is to correct the bad job that they did in the previous work order. So the dealership will have to absorb the cost (mostly just man hours).

 

[Heima]

I am glad you eventually got your situation worked out.
Ford was being a jerk to the dealership, because dealerships try to screw over the manufacturers.
Ford wants proof, because they are to be paying the bill.

The majority of the people working on the electric cars, and this isn't just with Ford, have no clue how they really work or how to repair them.
This is why they are in contact with the manufacturer so often, and why the manufacturer gets annoyed with their trivial requests.

I don't trust any dealership or mechanic any further than I can throw them. That is why I learn as much about my vehicles as I can before I buy and during ownership. This is also why I do the majority of my own repairs.

I do have extended warranties with my FFE, but that was serendipity, as I did not learn about this until after I bought it second hand. I have an intermittent problem with the back up camera, which is probably just a bad connection. However, to get back there might end up breaking some clips. I would not want to have to pay to replace those clips. Car companies screw you for those things that cost pennies on the dollar.

So I will eventually take it in. and I have video of the problem. And Forscan does have a record of the problem. And I kept the code in the module, I did not reset it.

 

[Heima]

Oh, another thing.
When the dealership says they did the vacuum thing, that's ********.
If they did, you would not have the bubbles.
They just said they did, to get the money from Ford.
They just poured coolant in, and said done. Took them all of 3 minutes.
But they told Ford they did the vacuum, got paid for 20+ minutes of work and pocketed the difference.
Ford knew they were bullshitting when they said they did the vacuum, hence the reluctance of Ford to assist when the dealership got caught lying.
Thank you for naming the dealership, I will remember to never call upon them in the future, and hopefully no one else will.
As for "burping" the system? Maybe that is the slang at that dealership. What ever burping is, it is not as thorough as the vacuum bleed for removing air.
Hmm, maybe you caught them in their lie. They didn't do the vacuum bleed, because the burping is better. Yeah, right.

 

[Hyperbole]

Usually, Hot Coolant Expands.