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Streetfocus

Active member
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Messages
34
Location
Austin, TX
I am new to the EV world and we are looking at leasing a new '16 FFE. I have never leased and it seems counterintuitive, but apparently the FFE is only good for about 3 or 4 years (?). I would buy one, but I don't want a car that is unusable after 4 years (the range diminishes to less than 40 mi). So, in this case, I guess leasing makes sense. IDK. Help!!
 
I'm driving a 2012 that was built in November of 2011 and with moderate weather conditions I still get over 70 miles of range per charge.
 
Streetfocus said:
I am new to the EV world and we are looking at leasing a new '16 FFE. I have never leased and it seems counterintuitive, but apparently the FFE is only good for about 3 or 4 years (?). I would buy one, but I don't want a car that is unusable after 4 years (the range diminishes to less than 40 mi). So, in this case, I guess leasing makes sense. IDK. Help!!


Why lease a 2016 and not a 2017?
 
Streetfocus said:
I have never leased and it seems counterintuitive, but apparently the FFE is only good for about 3 or 4 years (?).
Where did you hear this?

Your figures sound like the absolute worse case figures (or figures from early Leaf's that spent their lives in Arizona).

At the end of my 3 year lease my FFE had 30,000 miles on it and was getting the exact same range as it did when new.
 
Really? That's great news. I was told that since I live in a hot climate (tx), that the battery would degrade quicker and it would make more sense to just lease. (Side note, there are big incentives on the '16s now. I found a '14 with 24K miles in good condition for 9k. If it will retain over 50 mi range in this heat for at least 3 more years, I'd buy it.
 
Does anyone leave their car in the sun for long periods of time (like 12 hours at a time)? It would sit unplugged at my work and I want it to be okay.
 
Note that the Focus has a battery heater/cooler to keep the battery temps in a reasonable range.

I can't answer the sun questions as my FFE lived its life with me in MI. During the summer it would sit outside all day not plugged in, but around here that isn't as harsh as your location can be.
 
Thank you. I need someone who lives in the south to chime in with their experience. I use the AC all year round (for example, it is in the upper 70s this week). How bad does AC reduce range. I have a 40 mile total commute, and I need to know if the FFE is reasonable if I use the AC back and forth, and it sits unplugged for 12 hours or more in triple digit heat. I don't want to be stranded or anything.
 
OK, wow lots of misinformation there.

There was somebody on this forum back a few years ago from Arizona - his name had AZ in it. I don't remember him ever talking about issues with range.

The car is incredibly reliable. As JMueller said, it has heating and cooling for the battery and the battery is incredibly well protected. Turned in a three year old leased with around 24,000 miles on it, and the battery was as fresh as the day I first got it (Chicago area). I now own an over 30,000 mile three year old, and the battery is acting exactly like brand new. I see no battery degradation.

The car I own now came from Southern California. I think it gets just as hot there in the summer as it does in Texas. I don't know where the car was parked, but over 100 degree weather is not really a problem for the car.

AC has the least impact on range compared to heating. I can't say for sure, but you will likely be able to run the AC all you want.

The bigger impact will be your driving. If you choose to drive 70 - 75 MPH all the time, range will suffer in a major way. If you choose to brake late and not use the brake coach, range will suffer. Poking at the accelerator a lot will make range suffer.

There was somebody on the forum that had a ton of trouble at first getting good range. He admitted he drove hard and didn't pay any attention to the tools in the car. Once he started doing the gentle driving thing, all was good.
 
A bunch of things about the FFE.

First and foremost lease a 2017. The car has 100 miles of range, is equipped with rapid charging (something you will be very happy you have), and is overall a better car. Lease that. Ignore all those incentives, you'll be far ahead with that car.

Now if you absolutely must have a car right now and can't wait. You have two options - lease a 2016 or buy a used FFE. DON'T BUY a 2016. The day you purchase that 2016 it will only be worth around $10,000. OK, I'm exaggerating a tiny amount, but you will be killed with depreciation if you want to get something different in a few years. You'll pay maybe $25,000 for the car, and at the end of your loan, you will be lucky to sell it for $8,000 - super lucky. And you will be upside down on your loan for a very long time (you owe more than the car is worth). Granted when you PURCHASE an EV, there is a $7,500 tax credit, and possibly a Texas rebate. When you Lease the car, you DON'T get that incentive. And it is possible our beloved president will repeal the $7,500 credit - you can't know what will happen this year, don't count on the credit.

Lease is incredibly simple. You rent the car for three years. At the end of three years, you either turn it in and walk away, or you pay the residual amount you agreed to and you own the car. Here's how it worked for me - at the end of three years, Ford put a value of like $18,000 on my car. If I wanted the car, I'd have to pay $18,000 for a 3 year old car. The problem, there are dozens of FFE's in the same shape, with about the same mileage, for $9,000. I'd be stupid to buy my car at lease end. Now if Ford put a value of $5,000 on the car, that would be a great deal. I would have purchased it. But they don't do that (your lease payments would be too high). So I turned the car in, paid $210 for a just over allowable dent (highly strange, they allow a lot of dents in normal wear and tear), and walked away.

The other option is to buy a used FFE. That is actually the smart move. Getting smarter every month. There are a ton of FFE's that came off lease on the market. Good clean California cars with low mileage can be found for around $9,000 - maybe less if you shop. There are a lot advertised for $12,000 because dealers took a gamble and bought the cars at auction for too much money. They are taking a bath.

So you could just plop down some cash for a good used car. As long as the title is clean, and the car came from California, you can buy with confidence. You'll likely need a new set of tires - almost nobody put new tires on the car during the 3 year lease - they didn't need to. The tires will be pretty worn on a used car. Count around $800 for the tires. It requires low rolling resistance tires, don't just buy random cheap tires.

The thing you also have to consider is the cost of adding a 240V charger. That might cost you anywhere from $500 to $3,000. Depending on your garage (attached, detached, electric service available in your house, and which charger you buy). You won't be able to keep up with your commute with 120V that comes with the car. You'll get around 3-4 miles per hour of charging on that connection. You'll end up running into a deficit over time.

Hope that helps you. So sorry to hear all the really bad information you got about the car. There aren't a lot of them out there, but it is by far the best commuter electric car around for a good price. I really love the car for commuting and around town driving.
 
Thank you so much. I suppose I am just nervous. As long as I can make my 40 mile round trip commute, maybe I should just buy the 2014 one I found for $9K. Maybe for my wife, we can get the newer lease, just to be safe. Or maybe just take the plunge for two used ones, if the consensus is that they will hold up for another few years.
 
EVA nailed it. For the money, used (off-lease or otherwise) is the way to go. The lease is popular for electrics due to the uncertainty around the battery and the evolution of the technology. Smart money NEVER leases -- but I sure am glad some of you decide to do it, because it drives a good chunk of the used market!

http://www.clark.com/car-leasing-back-does-it-make-sense-you

The hard part is finding a deal. I bought my 2013 with 24K for $7500 from someone who bought it outright, and the trade-in value was atrocious. I handed the owner $1000 more in cash than his best trade-in offer. I saw off-lease 2013's offered at $10K last May when I bought mine. What's funny -- I wasn't looking for a car, much less an electric car. But I couldn't pass up the deal.

My car has zero noticeable battery degradation, now over 28K miles. Even with 50% of its current capacity, it's still totally viable. In fact, I think it'll be a great first car for a kid in a couple of years -- safe, easy to drive and not a lot of money invested.

Financially, consider this:

- If you just WANT an electric car, buy a used one and negotiate a deal.
- If you're looking to decrease monthly expense, make sure you do the math. The lease cost is (down payment + monthly payments + insurance + maintenance (tires?) + fuel (electricity) + turn in fees) / term. If your current expense is more (loan payment + fuel + maintenance + insurance), then it's a good financial move.
- A 2013 Focus Titanium (with none of the range questions) can be found for $8K without looking hard, and likely cheaper if you try. It's sure to be viable long past the FFE.
 
Streetfocus said:
As long as I can make my 40 mile round trip commute
My round trip is 30 and I have a coworker who also leased an FFE the same time I did--his round trip is 50 miles.

Even in the dead of winter when the FFE would only get 50 miles neither of us had any issues.

You'll be surprised at how much you have left over at the end of your commute in nice warm TX. In addition: If you put a Level 2 EVSE in (you really should) you'll get quite a bit of range back over dinner.
 
Nice! That is great news. We want electric, money is less of an issue (otherwise, I would just keep my ST, much nicer and better looking). I think used is the right choice then. Thanks to all!
 
Welcome to the wonderful world of EVs!!!

One thing that hasn't been mentioned although it sounds like it will never be a problem for you is cold. Cold weather and heater usage destroys the range on these cars. Heavy use of heat even with good driving habits can see the range drop into the 40ish miles. If you try really hard with lots of quick acceleration and braking you can probably get the range down to the mid 30's. Also not mentioned is that there is no battery capacity warranty but the battery does have an 8 year warranty on it. My experience is that AC takes about a 5-10mi hit on range. Since you will be in triple digits temperature wise, the battery thermal management will kick in and use the AC to keep the battery below 95F (battery thermal management tries to keep the battery above 50F and below 95F). This might impact your range a little more. I am making a wild guess here and it probably won't be that bad but it might take 15-20 miles off your range which would still leave you with 56miles of range. What has been mentioned but maybe not emphasized enough is under what conditions are those 40 miles of round trip commute? You can go nearly twice as far at 25mph as you can at 80mph. Ok maybe not entirely accurate but the point is the faster you go the shorter your range. Coming from driving a ICE car this is really counter intuitive and it took me quite some time to get used to because ICE cars behave just the opposite (more range at freeway speed vs slow city driving). Range really starts to drop off exponentially above 50 something miles per hour. If your commute is all freeway and you must go 80 the whole way you might run into problems with being able to go 40mi. Take that last statement with a huge grain of salt as I've never attempted to see what my range is at high speed in high heat.

All Lithium Ion batteries degrade with time and usage. The technology is new enough that only time will tell how well the battery holds up in the long run. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that at one time they expected lithium EV batteries to be down to 70% it's original capacity after 10 years/100,000 miles. Who knows how this will apply to the FFE. Some people have reported capacity loss to varying degrees after 30-50k miles, Others have reported very little if any. I'm going out on a limb and am going to guess that those who see more than negligible capacity loss are those that completely drain the battery on a regular basis. It is not good for their longevity the longer duration and deeper Lithium Ion batters are discharged. I think it has something to do with chemical reactions that can or do happen when a battery nearly depleted. So if you can charge the battery before you get very low at least in theory it will make it last longer.
 
Ok. More good info there. My commute can either be by toll road (85 mph all hwy) or through city, mostly 45ish mph. I take both all the time. I can definitely opt for the city route. No problem. Thanks.
 
I'm also a newbie. I will say I love this car however, I have a '13... I bought it with 16k and I've out over 2k miles on it.... I'm at 18k now with 15.9kw left useable. Starting to get worried myself. Otherwise a really nice car.
 
jjsv1 said:
I'm also a newbie. I will say I love this car however, I have a '13... I bought it with 16k and I've out over 2k miles on it.... I'm at 18k now with 15.9kw left useable. Starting to get worried myself. Otherwise a really nice car.

That seems low. I have a bit over 20K on my 2015, the last run-down test I did showed 17.2 kw useable. I consistently get over 70 miles on a single charge, over the 20K miles I've averaged about 247 whr/mi. This week, since it's been warmer, and no rain, I'm averaging 220. My commute is 2/3 freeway, 1/3 streets, but some of my highway is in stop and go traffic (particularly on the way home). 80 mph is required out here while driving in the carpool lane, or you will get run over.

Keith
 
Streetfocus said:
What is whr?
Watt-Hours/Mile = Energy used from the battery over one mile distance
Note that the FFE display for total battery energy used will include accessory power as well such as climate control.
 
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