range question for current FFE owners

[howardc64]

We are really interested in a 2nd EV. Currently own a Tesla Model S so am fairly familiar with range degradation issues (speed, winter)

Test drove an FFE this past weekend and love the car. But it seems about 20 mile short on range compared to what we need. We were hoping for 80 summer and 60 winter with say 10 mile left when returning home. The FFE wouldn't be used for a fixed commute pattern, thus we want a bit more freedom for some daily errands. The test drive started at 71mi fully charged, driving it fairly gently yielded about a 1 to 1 correspondence to the predicted range.

Looks like its about 60 summer and I guess maybe 40 winter? (Winter months definitely take a bite into the range in our Tesla although it has plenty for the day) if I keep the 10mi buffer?

BTW, I'm in the Pacific Northwest so winter's cold and rain does take a range bite of the Tesla along with some hills. We average around 350Whr/mi on the Tesla during the winter and probably closer to 300 in the summer. I was surprised to see FFE isn't too much lower.

Anyhow, looking for feedback if my range projections are about correct on the FFE.

 

[michael]

The FFE is a really good car, but I don't think it will deliver the 90 mile range you're looking for without extraordinary care. That's about 210 Wh/mile. My own usage is 90% freeway, typically 60-70 mph and I use about 270 Wh/mile (70 mile range). The air conditioner is pretty efficient but the heater uses a lot of power.

I've logged nearly 14,000 miles in 7 months, and it's served me very well. But for your purposes I'd have to suggest a Volt as the second car...it's not quite as nice as the FFE and is a little more expensive, but its range is unlimited. On your 40 mile days, you can go pure electric, but for the unexpected long range days you are totally covered. I'd also have proposed a RAV4 EV, but they are available only here in California.

Others here may disagree, but that's my thinking....

 

[howardc64]

Thanks for the reply and info. Very helpful.

Currently have a Prius as a second car. EV is about 2X more efficient energy cost wise compared to the Prius so won't be saving all that much. Just really like EV's nice drive + no gas station visits

I think we are going to wait a couple of more years to see if any manufacturer can get closer to 100mi summer range which probably works out to be about 30kWhr battery.

 

[v_traveller]

howardc64 -

Looks like the Mercedes B-Class ED is coming your way next year.... specs in the article below indicate that it should fit your needs.

http://insideevs.com/breaking-mercedes-benz-b-class-electric-drive-priced-41450/

 

[EVA]

Howard, think you got the unfortunate answer - the range is just outside what you appear to need - at least the way you've described it.

Did you consider charging at the other end of the trip. You're used to 4 mph on 110V, not getting you much of anything in your Tesla (why bother, right ?). In the Focus Electric, 8 hours of even 110V charging could be the difference that adds the cushion you need (36 miles is a huge percentage extra on the Focus). Level 2 would get you more than enough range.

I have a Focus Electric and just took delivery of an Model S 85kW on Saturday. I love both cars for very different reasons. Without question, all electric is the best way to go. Every time I look at the Focus Electric or drive it, I smile. That car is so zen like, it is small, efficient, simple, and quiet. It makes me drive like a limo driver and I love driving it. The Tesla, I still can't get over getting to 101MPH in the blink of an eye, and internet radio has me addicted to the sound system.

Don't think you would be happy with a Volt at all. I'd recommend the Fusion Energi, but the pure electric range is not huge on that car either. You've still got the whole hauling around a gas engine when I might need it deal. And you still have to maintain that engine.

Too bad there isn't a way for you to rent one for a week - or lease one with a way out during the first month. Test drives won't really tell you about range and battery use.

By the way, the two cars look fantastic next to each other. You really should get the Focus Electric.

 

[Richmond72]

What about the BMW i3. I think it has more range.

 

[Fluke]

I'll be the contrary view relative to the Volt. I much prefer driving our Volt vs. our FFE, but my wife feels the same so I drive the FFE 95% of the time. The software in the Volt is rock solid while the FFE software is by far the worst of any car I've driven (with the exception of other Ford cars with Sync). I've been surprised by how much this one aspect of the car degrades the whole experience for me. As soon as I've got enough saved up, the FFE will be replaced with a Model S.

 

[jmueller065]

Yes, SYNC is that bad

LMAO!

I'm actually pretty satisfied with how well MFT works (your real problem is with MFT, not Sync per se). But then I think that each MFT has its own individual behavior. For all three of the cars we've had with MFT each have/had its own idiosyncrasies that you'd have to get used to/work around (some worse than others).

 

[howardc64]

Thanks for all the responses.

@EVA, charging on the other end won't be convenient if we get the FFE, will be used for random local errands so unknown charging option on the other end and certainly inconvenient if we hunt for an outlet. Model S actually works fine for this role but it such a wide car and easy to pick up dings+scapes, we find ourselves hunting for safe parking spots everywhere we go. And if we go to places where people are not so careful with their cars (like Costco parking lot haha), would be nice to have a narrower and less expensive EV

Since I have a Prius now as a second car, I prefer not to switch to PHEV like Volt or Energi if possible and just all the way to full EV. But looks like my winter range requirement puts me about 2-3 years away. For nearer term, I'll look into Mercedes B-Class ED (80mi range in summer may not be enough) and BMW i3. For longer term, I'll wait for the Tesla Gen 3 or any other manufacturer that can get to 30+kWhr for reasonable price.

I have maintained my own cars (previously European cars at >= 100k miles so lots of work) and really like the low wear/stress nature of EVs. If you look at an ICE car, engine's high heat + cooling needs, high spark + fuel pressure delivery, and multi speed transmission are all high stress wear points. Jay Leno mentioned his ~100 year old Baker EV never breaks down. Brakes also never wears and likely last a life time due to regen. Anyhow, so I'm anticipating a lot less maintenance which seems to be true on the Tesla at the moment (except that Tesla operates like a software company so constant mods+upgrades of both SW+HW so the car goes back for retrofits). Modern EVs do have all that electronics which might cause worry if they show failures beyond warranty period. Tesla's LCD instrument cluster is $6k... hope it never wears out! Cars around 2000 had lots of solder joint problems due to lead-free transition. Hope things are worked out now but laptop longevity don't exactly inspire confidence. Tesla's main infotainment panel is nVidia Tegra 2.

 

[michael]

BMW I3 looks like very good car but it is nutty expensive. I got the following quote:


2014 i3 BMW with Range Extender
MSRP: $51,175.00

Residual @ 15,000 Miles Per Year: 39% ($19,958.25)

Rebate for Lease: $4,875.00 (Used only for Lease, this rebate gives the awareness that the residual is low and compensates for that)

*** Based on 700+ Fico Score

Total Drive OFF: $3000.00 (Includes all Tax, Title, DMV, Acquisition Fee, and First Month Payment)
Monthly Payment: $838.79 + Tax
Payment WITH TAX: $914.28 (9% La County Tax Used)

** For every $1,000 more down or less it will change payment $30 roughly.



For that kind of money you could lease three FFE's and have plenty left over. Last quote I got on an FFE was 290/month including tax, zero driveaway. They are a bargain and a half, IMO.


As regards the Ford software, I have an FFE and a Volt, and frankly I find the Ford easier to use. The Volt has a hodge-podge of buttons and touchscreen, and it's tough to navigate. The Iphone app isn't any better than Ford's. But either one is waaay better than nothing.

 

[pjam3]

If you have a lot hills and inclines, the FFE is just not a very good car for those circumstances. I don't have many huge inclines or hills, but I have enough to where it'll kill 15 miles worth of range to go less than 2 miles. There is just no way around this for me. So I could charge it at the local promenade (which is 1.5 miles away) and have a range of 85 miles, but when I get home, it'll have around 65-70 miles left. And like I said, it's 1.5 miles. And that's going 25-30 MPH.

None of that would matter if it got me +15 on the opposite direction, but it never works out like this because many of these roads near me are slight inclines, slight declines, and anywhere I go it'll never get me back the 15 miles. So 99 percent of the time, my car gets about 65 miles and that's going 35 MPH in 70 degree weather. Hills and the FFE just don't mix.

 

[WattsUp]

If you have a lot hills and inclines, the FFE is just not a very good car for those circumstances. I don't have many huge inclines or hills, but I have enough to where it'll kill 15 miles worth of range to go less than 2 miles. There is just no way around this for me. So I could charge it at the local promenade (which is 1.5 miles away) and have a range of 85 miles, but when I get home, it'll have around 65-70 miles left. And like I said, it's 1.5 miles. And that's going 25-30 MPH.

All that's happening is your estimate is changing (based on increased Wh/mi to go up hills and decreased when going down). You aren't "losing miles" any more rapidly to another EV driving those hills, and the FFE is not somehow handling hills "badly".

All it means is that, on average, driving up and down those hills, your FFE thinks it can get 65 miles. You could get the exact same effect on level ground just driving really fast (say, 80 mph) in one direction and then driving really slow (25 mph) in the other. Would you then complain that the FFE is "handling speed badly" if you got different range estimates after each trip?

Now, you might legitimately complain that the FFE range estimator is prone to excessive variance under certain circumstances (downhill then uphill, fast then slow, or whatever) but, trust me, the car itself is working just about as well as can be expected under all those circumstances. It uses only the energy required to get over the hill (or to go fast).

Also, you say the car "gets about 65 miles". Is that just what the range estimate says? Or, have you actually driven to empty and measured the distance you really "got"? The two numbers can be quite different.

 

[michael]

I concur with WattsUp. I can drive up a half mile hill and the range estimate plummets, but the battery percentage falls very little. The estimator doesn't know that the hill won't continue for miles and miles.

The reverse is also true. Once I came home after a long downhill. There was only 15% battery left, but the GOM said 40 miles remaining. My daughter took the car thinking she had 40 miles in the bank and almost ran out of juice.

I find the "cup of energy" display to be quite useful. It tells me how many Wh/mile I need to maintain to reach my destination and I know what levels I can achieve easily or with a lot of care.

 

[howardc64]

Tesla has a live Whr/mile/time graph that is quite useful to help the driver to assess every need that cost energy (heat, speed, lead foot, hiils) As everyone noted, what should a range predictor output is unclear under non average conditions.

Regarding battery capacity, do you guys think range increase is super linear to the capacity increase? Real usable kWhr is always less than battery capacity due to safety margins. I wonder if the safety margins becomes proportionally smaller with the bigger capacity packs?

- must have unusable reserve to avoid bricking the battery
- I think need to stop charging before fully charged for battery longevity

In addition, large capacity results in smaller discharge/charge cycling for the same usage which should yield better longevity. But of course cost $$$.

 

[v_traveller]

If you have a lot hills and inclines, the FFE is just not a very good car for those circumstances.

(stuff deleted)

Hills and the FFE just don't mix.

It's not just the FFE, pjam3. At the moment, hills aren't good for the range prediction on any BEV.

My wife experiences the same phenomena in her Tesla-powered RAV4 EV. Every Tuesday she leaves home for a 5 mile trip, range of 98 miles usually. One mile of that trip is a steep uphill. By the time she comes home, after a 10-mile round trip, a 65 to 72 mile range is shown. Yet there is still over 90% charge left.

Same damn thing happens in my FFE when I have to do that same drive. The FFE averages about 260 Wh/mi during that trip, but range drops about 20 miles instead of the expected 10 miles.

 

[michael]

Tesla has a live Whr/mile/time graph that is quite useful to help the driver to assess every need that cost energy (heat, speed, lead foot, hiils) As everyone noted, what should a range predictor output is unclear under non average conditions.

Regarding battery capacity, do you guys think range increase is super linear to the capacity increase? Real usable kWhr is always less than battery capacity due to safety margins. I wonder if the safety margins becomes smaller with the bigger capacity packs?

- must have unusable reserve to avoid bricking the battery
- I think need to stop charging before fully charged for battery longevity

In addition, large capacity results in smaller discharge/charge cycling for the same usage which should yield better longevity. But of course cost $$$.

The FFE also has a bargraph display of Wh/mile over some past amount of time (which is selectable).

I would imagine the usable percentage of the battery is based primarily on the battery chemistry and the manufacturer's attitude. The FFE allows approximately 19 kWh (some here think slightly more) of the 23 rated (80-85% prox). Volt uses less, Leaf uses more. Tesla, I understand, allows flexibility.

Ironically, Leaf, infamous for battery degradation, just "increased" its range 10% by removing the option for 80% charging. Ford never even offered the option of automatic partial charge.

 

[pjam3]

If you have a lot hills and inclines, the FFE is just not a very good car for those circumstances. I don't have many huge inclines or hills, but I have enough to where it'll kill 15 miles worth of range to go less than 2 miles. There is just no way around this for me. So I could charge it at the local promenade (which is 1.5 miles away) and have a range of 85 miles, but when I get home, it'll have around 65-70 miles left. And like I said, it's 1.5 miles. And that's going 25-30 MPH.

All that's happening is your estimate is changing (based on increased Wh/mi to go up hills and decreased when going down). You aren't "losing miles" any more rapidly to another EV driving those hills, and the FFE is not somehow handling hills "badly".

All it means is that, on average, driving up and down those hills, your FFE thinks it can get 65 miles. You could get the exact same effect on level ground just driving really fast (say, 80 mph) in one direction and then driving really slow (25 mph) in the other. Would you then complain that the FFE is "handling speed badly" if you got different range estimates after each trip?

Now, you might legitimately complain that the FFE range estimator is prone to excessive variance under certain circumstances (downhill then uphill, fast then slow, or whatever) but, trust me, the car itself is working just about as well as can be expected under all those circumstances. It uses only the energy required to get over the hill (or to go fast).

Also, you say the car "gets about 65 miles". Is that just what the range estimate says? Or, have you actually driven to empty and measured the distance you really "got"? The two numbers can be quite different.

Like I said, my car gets about 65 miles max most of the time. And the "estimator" is fine and dandy, but I still will start out with a range of 85 miles fully charged, get home with say 70 miles, and I never get those lost 15 miles back.

Most of the time the FFE always is around -8 or -10 everywhere I go on a normal basis. It's a terrible car if you have a lot of inclines that don't really have long declines.

Going to the WF where there is a charger is 1.5 miles. I can spend a few hours there, charge it to 80-85 mile range, and drive 1.5 miles and have around 65-70 miles left. I don't care about the estimate so much, the reality is the FFE does the same thing all the time. To go 1.5 miles, the car goes from 85 miles estimated down to 65-70 every single time. And when I start my car up and use it the next day, I start with 65-70 miles and it never goes back up to 85 miles. And going in the opposite direction is a wash because I can get +8 down the hill, but back up the hill i'll lose +8. But if I go north, it never equals out. It's one of those +5 down the hill and -15 up the hill because the way the roads were build and designed.

I just find it funny people try to go above and beyond defending the FFE and can't accept the reality of the car. I've accepted the fact that my FFE gets me about 60-65 Miles where I live. Trying to make BS claims is kind of annoying. Great it doesn't happen for you, but for me, 65 miles is about the max my car gets when I use it for my every day uses.\

And yeah if you read another post of mine, I had to have my car towed once because it really ran out.

 

[WattsUp]

I just find it funny people try to go above and beyond defending the FFE and can't accept the reality of the car. I've accepted the fact that my FFE gets me about 60-65 Miles where I live.

Glad you're amused. But, I actually accept that your reality is 65 miles. Nobody said otherwise. And we're not defending the FFE in particular. We're just not sure why you don't seem to accept the way range estimation works (and often doesn't) in every EV on the market. We agree that it is not perfect.

So again, is this "65" you keep referring to just what the estimator says? Or, have you actually driven to empty (with the trip meter reset at the start) and, in fact, traveled only 65 miles?

If the latter, and your average Wh/mi (assuming reset upon a full charge) is near 300 Wh/mi, then I am thoroughly unsurprised at your experience of 65 miles. That's exactly the distance you should be able to travel on the roughly 19 kWh of usable energy stored in the FFE battery -- driving on hills or not, driving fast or not. Frankly, you should be thrilled that the car is performing within specifications.

Trying to make BS claims is kind of annoying. Great it doesn't happen for you, but for me, 65 miles is about the max my car gets when I use it for my every day uses.

You will only achieve the 76 EPA-rated miles if you can average around 250 Wh/mi. If you can't do that (and average around 300 Wh/mi instead, which is what I highly suspect in your case), you'll get something more in the 60s.

Anyway, what "BS claims" are you referring to exactly? (I ask since you seem to have quoted my response.) And, if you're going to call BS... then kindly tell us what your average Wh/mi is after driving those 65 miles (which presumably would deplete your battery). If it's around 300, then please stop complaining. At that level of consumption, the range you're seeing is totally normal.

We're just trying to understand why you seem to be so upset "at" the range estimator -- all you seem to be saying is that "it said 85, and then it said 65". Yup, my FFE does the same if I simply drive slow and then drive fast. Or, downhill and then uphill. (One time, my FFE estimated 155 miles on a half charge! -- but I understand that was just a skewed estimate due to massive regen that had reduced my average Wh/mi to something very small.) I'm not surprised by any of that, and I know my FFE is working great, and would go 76 miles, just as advertised, if I drove with an average 250 Wh/mi.

In any case, realize that you're not necessarily "losing" or "gaining" energy when the estimate changes. A change in the estimate doesn't represent an absolute gain or loss (which is what you seem to be upset about). It's just an estimate computed from your average Wh/mi and current SOC, and can vary drastically even for the same SOC (because your Wh/mi can vary drastically). So, seeing "status" numbers like +13 or -5 is simply informational -- they're not "real" miles that have be "put into" or "taken from" the battery -- they merely indicate the change in the estimate since the estimate at ignition (otherwise known as the "budget"). Lastly, understand that a positive status doesn't necessarily correspond to regeneration -- and this is one of the reasons why your "loss" in status going up the hill isn't exactly "replaced" by going back down the hill.

The only real absolute numbers you can use are the % SOC of the battery, the kWh used, and Wh/mi. The range estimate will always and only be relative to these.

 

[scoops]

If you have a lot hills and inclines, the FFE is just not a very good car for those circumstances. I don't have many huge inclines or hills, but I have enough to where it'll kill 15 miles worth of range to go less than 2 miles. There is just no way around this for me. So I could charge it at the local promenade (which is 1.5 miles away) and have a range of 85 miles, but when I get home, it'll have around 65-70 miles left. And like I said, it's 1.5 miles. And that's going 25-30 MPH.

Actually the FFE is awesome on hills. That's when you can really feel that torque I love to shoot up the steep hills on my way to work every morning. Beats having to downshift in my old car and revving it to 4000rpm. Going down the hills in the evening is great too. Regen doesn't recapture all of the energy but gravity is constant and pulls the same going down as it did when you went up (potential energy, basic physics.)

Do you really think you're using 15 miles of electricity to go 1.5 miles?

 

[WattsUp]

If you have a lot hills and inclines, the FFE is just not a very good car for those circumstances.

Actually the FFE is awesome on hills. That's when you can really feel that torque

+1

Same here.