Used FFE?

[ken1939]

New to the forum, and I have looked at quite a few posts today. How many here have purchased a used FFE and what have been your experiences?

 

[amped]

I just recently purchased a 2014 model.

Pros: Late model FFEs can be quite cheap (mine was under $10k, from a Ford dealer$hip, with just over 17k miles).
I would say that my dealership experience was a relaxed, relatively painless process - YMMV

Even with $2 gas, "fueling" the EV with grid electricity is much cheaper per mile than gassing up a conventional car.
Many utilities (even where I am in AL) have some sort of subsidized charging scheme. I haven't enrolled in mine yet
but it is a simple time of use subsidy, so the discount I get on my non-EV usage during those hours will likely save
enough money to buy ~1500-2000 miles worth of electricity for my FFE every year.

Maintenance schedule is laughably simple/cheap

Torque!

Potential for cabin pre-conditioning on grid electricity. Haven't done much with this yet but it's a nice option.

Traction battery has a thermal management system to improve performance and longevity. If looking at a used FFE
insist upon a long test drive. You want to substantially deplete the battery during your test drive. This can help you
estimate remaining capacity - there's a discussion of how to do this in the forum somewhere.

Stealth EV. At first glance, looks just like a gasser. Less likely to evoke inchoate rage of a certain fraction of
petrolheads and rollin' coal fanatics.

Cons:I think further depreciation going forward will probably be steeper than for a conventional vehicle. Related to this is
the fact that 200mi+ EVs will be entering the market soon so current FFEs will be obsolete in some respects.

No DC fast-charging capability. Might be an issue for some.

Instant torque + LRR tires = spinning out tires if you're not careful

Torque at low speed seems to have been deliberately turned down by the engineers

I don't like the way the auto climate control works to maintain cabin temp. It's too aggressive. It will, seemingly,
turn on the heater after the AC has brought the temp down slightly below the set point instead of simply turning off
the AC and letting solar gain + thermal conductance of exterior heat bring the temp back up. Maybe there's a way
to change this???

No regenerative braking when 100% charged - have to get down to 99-99.5

No control over charging target - i.e. charging process always aims for "100%"

Limited cargo capacity due to traction battery placement. Still usable, but that hump can get in the way if you want to
carry something bulky.

These cars seem to have 12v battery issues. There's a constant small drain on the 12v system from the telematics
module (& maybe others) and the car doesn't seem to be very aggressive about keeping the 12v at a high SOC.
Actually, if you're looking at getting a used FFE from a dealer, be sure to get the 12v battery checked. If the car sits on
the lot for weeks to months with clueless salespeople not plugging them in, the 12v will be drained and may spend
a lot of time fully discharged, getting damaged by sulfation etc.

MFM app is barely usable in certain areas. This system relies upon an embedded AT&T 2G modem. Unfortunately, AT&T
is in the process of shutting down all of its 2G infrastructure. It's not entirely clear if there will be an upgrade path for
existing FFEs.

 

[jmueller065]

No regenerative braking when 100% charged - have to get down to 99-99.5

How is this a con? Do you want it destroying the battery by overcharging it??

 

[amped]

No regenerative braking when 100% charged - have to get down to 99-99.5

How is this a con? Do you want it destroying the battery by overcharging it??

Perhaps I should have listed it as an annoyance rather than a con?

This is a very minor issue, but I personally would have preferred that the "100%" level be set at a very slightly lower absolute SOC in order to allow for at least a little regen off the bat. In any case, 100% displayed is actually more like a true SOC of ~90% - only ~80-85% of the total battery capacity being usable by the car so as to slow down degradation. I doubt that an extra ~0.5% SOC would destroy the battery, especially if it's only up there for a very short period of time due to initial regen - my understanding is that degradation from high SOC is time dependent and not subject to some hard threshold above which everything suddenly unravels. If that little bit extra happens to be too damaging, give an option to stop charging at a slightly lower level. Hell, give an option to stop charging at any user-designated SOC at or below whatever level is incompatible with good battery life.

It's not really a big deal but, since I don't drive that much and many nearby destinations require a bit of downhill driving to start with, the lack of initial regen will significantly increase my avg Wh/mi if I want to keep the car plugged in to take advantage of the TMS and/or cabin pre-conditioning.

 

[campfamily]

I just recently purchased a 2014 model.

Pros: Late model FFEs can be quite cheap (mine was under $10k, from a Ford dealer$hip, with just over 17k miles).
I would say that my dealership experience was a relaxed, relatively painless process - YMMV

Even with $2 gas, "fueling" the EV with grid electricity is much cheaper per mile than gassing up a conventional car.
Many utilities (even where I am in AL) have some sort of subsidized charging scheme. I haven't enrolled in mine yet
but it is a simple time of use subsidy, so the discount I get on my non-EV usage during those hours will likely save
enough money to buy ~1500-2000 miles worth of electricity for my FFE every year.

Maintenance schedule is laughably simple/cheap

Torque!

Potential for cabin pre-conditioning on grid electricity. Haven't done much with this yet but it's a nice option.

Traction battery has a thermal management system to improve performance and longevity. If looking at a used FFE
insist upon a long test drive. You want to substantially deplete the battery during your test drive. This can help you
estimate remaining capacity - there's a discussion of how to do this in the forum somewhere.

Stealth EV. At first glance, looks just like a gasser. Less likely to evoke inchoate rage of a certain fraction of
petrolheads and rollin' coal fanatics.

Cons:I think further depreciation going forward will probably be steeper than for a conventional vehicle. Related to this is
the fact that 200mi+ EVs will be entering the market soon so current FFEs will be obsolete in some respects.

No DC fast-charging capability. Might be an issue for some.

Instant torque + LRR tires = spinning out tires if you're not careful

Torque at low speed seems to have been deliberately turned down by the engineers

I don't like the way the auto climate control works to maintain cabin temp. It's too aggressive. It will, seemingly,
turn on the heater after the AC has brought the temp down slightly below the set point instead of simply turning off
the AC and letting solar gain + thermal conductance of exterior heat bring the temp back up. Maybe there's a way
to change this???

No regenerative braking when 100% charged - have to get down to 99-99.5

No control over charging target - i.e. charging process always aims for "100%"

Limited cargo capacity due to traction battery placement. Still usable, but that hump can get in the way if you want to
carry something bulky.

These cars seem to have 12v battery issues. There's a constant small drain on the 12v system from the telematics
module (& maybe others) and the car doesn't seem to be very aggressive about keeping the 12v at a high SOC.
Actually, if you're looking at getting a used FFE from a dealer, be sure to get the 12v battery checked. If the car sits on
the lot for weeks to months with clueless salespeople not plugging them in, the 12v will be drained and may spend
a lot of time fully discharged, getting damaged by sulfation etc.

MFM app is barely usable in certain areas. This system relies upon an embedded AT&T 2G modem. Unfortunately, AT&T
is in the process of shutting down all of its 2G infrastructure. It's not entirely clear if there will be an upgrade path for
existing FFEs.

This is one of the better evaluations of our cars that I've read. Well done, "amped"!!

 

[triangles]

FWIW I think ford may have finally fixed the 12V issue or at least improved upon it. After the most recent recall computer update I left my car plugged into 120V for 4 days and left the parking lights on. To my surprise 12V wasn't dead when I got back. I didn't even realize what I had done until I was a few miles down the road.

 

[NightHawk]

FWIW I think ford may have finally fixed the 12V issue or at least improved upon it. After the most recent recall computer update I left my car plugged into 120V for 4 days and left the parking lights on. To my surprise 12V wasn't dead when I got back. I didn't even realize what I had done until I was a few miles down the road.

Yes, I too can confirm I also haven't had 12v battery issues anymore on my 2014 FFE since the Ford dealer did the firmware update as part of the recall issue I had done months ago.
Before that for over a year I had 12v battery issues where I had to carefully monitor the 12v level since it could get drained in a few days without driving the car.
Now it stays at nominal 12.3V even after a week, works great now!

 

[amped]

FWIW I think ford may have finally fixed the 12V issue or at least improved upon it. After the most recent recall computer update I left my car plugged into 120V for 4 days and left the parking lights on. To my surprise 12V wasn't dead when I got back. I didn't even realize what I had done until I was a few miles down the road.

Yes, I too can confirm I also haven't had 12v battery issues anymore on my 2014 FFE since the Ford dealer did the firmware update as part of the recall issue I had done months ago.
Before that for over a year I had 12v battery issues where I had to carefully monitor the 12v level since it could get drained in a few days without driving the car.
Now it stays at nominal 12.3V even after a week, works great now!

That's good to know. I had that recall work done before I took my FFE home from the dealer but I still had issues with the original 12v battery. Most likely the original battery was sick/dying due to the car sitting around on the lot for long periods without being used or plugged in, keeping the 12v battery in a prolonged deeply discharged state. After the first few weeks of driving the car, the 12v was toast and I had it replaced under warranty. Amazingly, this horribly degraded battery was still able to start the car if it was freshly topped up with an external charger (very quickly taking it from ~10.8v to 12.6v with probably less than 1 amp-h remaining capacity). These cars only require a tiny bit of juice from the 12v to start up.

Since the OP seems to be interested in buying a used FFE, he should be aware that the 12v battery in many of these cars may be in bad shape due to: 1) not yet having the recall work performed and 2) sitting around on a lot for weeks/months. Not a huge deal IMO since the 12v is relatively cheap and the original should be under warranty. Mine was covered for full replacement cost & labor with the bumper to bumper warranty - I guess it would be pro-rated under the separate battery warranty for older equipment.

 

[ken1939]

What has been your experience on the life of the battery then? How many miles a day do you drive? I know the charging thing seems to be an issue, what is your average charge time after use and have you programed the system to charge during certain hours say at night?

Has there been any gremlins that have popped up? I noticed on most of the FFE's that I have seen for sale by dealers have carfax reports that show two basic recalls on them.

Are there any updates to software or tweaks I should think about if I do get a used 2013 or 2014 that would help in the areas of the fore mentioned 12V battery issue, charging or performance?

I was speaking to a Leaf owner today, and he installed a 220 charger in his garage, and had it updated by a company in California for charging performance. He told me about his capacity and distances during cold and warm weather. we do share the same topography, plenty of hills in Western PA. I was not considering a Leaf, as I understood they had shorter range than the FFE and battery pack cooling was different. He referred to his as a golf cart basically.

He says he uses it as his to work and around town vehicle and it cost him about $20 a month in electric. I do not thing we have those Tiers in our area for use anymore.

I may try and see if I can either rent one for a week from the dealer, or say from Enterprise if I can get them to get one. I want to really see if it works into what I need a car for.

As mentioned, the cost of these have gone down to where I think its more economic to own, I am not a lease person. The lady I worked with leased Leafs, always changing at the end of one. And yes, the 2017 may offer more, as well the 2017 Bolt, but I think the FFE is more what I would drive.

 

[triangles]

Ken the leaf and FFE have pretty much the same range. I think the leaf was rated a bit higher because it has an "eco" mode that tweaks the rating from 73 to 84mi vs FFE's 76mi rating. In a warmer climate the Leaf is at a disadvantage due to it's lack of battery thermal management. During my 1.75 years of ownership in northern ohio my range has been between 45-98.9 miles.

 

[campfamily]

He says he uses it as his to work and around town vehicle and it cost him about $20 a month in electric. I do not thing we have those Tiers in our area for use anymore.

I may try and see if I can either rent one for a week from the dealer, or say from Enterprise if I can get them to get one. I want to really see if it works into what I need a car for.

You can do this calculation yourself. Find out how much electricity is per kw-hr where you live. Here in Southern California, the lowest price is 11 cents; it goes up to 35 cents or more if you use a lot during that month (typical during warmer months when we us A/C a lot). Assume 250 wh/mi for vehicle electricity consumption. The rest is just math; <# miles per month> X <cost of electricity per kw-hr> X <consumption rate> / <1000 (to convert kw to w)> / <85% (typical efficiency factor for a Level 2 charger)>. What your friend is telling you is true, if he drives about 600 miles per week, and is paying 11 cents per kw-hr of electricity.

Regarding renting one, good luck. I tried doing that when I was in the market, and I couldn't find anybody to do it, at least not here in Southern California. Best I could do was a ten mile or so test drive. I was able to get BMW to loan me an i3 for a long weekend, which convinced me that an electric car was something I could live with. You may try your local BMW dealer to see if they will do the same (I was previously driving a BMW 5-series, which may have had something to do with their decision to loan me an i3). Also, there are some apps out there that you can use to "simulate" driving an electric car. While driving your current vehicle, you activate the app at the beginning of your journey, then terminate it when you arrive, and the app figures out if a particular electric car would work for your commute. I found the app pretty much useless, since it didn't have a feature for round trips, and I could do the math myself with respect to whether I could make the distance or not.

I've had my FFE since May 2015. I have about 16K miles on it right now, and I'm averaging about 245 wh/mile in mostly freeway (70-80 mph) driving. But, I live in Southern California, so I seldom use the heater (the heater sucks up a huge amount of power).

Keith

 

[amped]

What has been your experience on the life of the battery then? How many miles a day do you drive? I know the charging thing seems to be an issue, what is your average charge time after use and have you programed the system to charge during certain hours say at night?

I've only noticed a problem with the 12v, not the traction battery, but then I've only been driving it for ~7 weeks. I typically only drive it 10-15 mi/d, more on occasion. The previous owner had it for two years and put ~17.3k miles on it, so ~24mi/day. Before buying, I tried to assess the remaining capacity in the Li-ion pack by substantially depleting the battery during a long test drive. I used the enhanced trip meter to keep track of the total energy used while I discharged the battery from ~80% to ~20%. From this I estimated ~19.7 kWh for a 100% charge - consensus seems to be than this should be ~19.5-19.6 for a new pack. This method is subject to errors from rounding in the displayed numbers (and the response may not be completely linear over the tested range?) but is good enough to tell you if there is significant degradation. My typical guess-o-meter readings near 100 (with ~200 Wh/mile driving style) also indicate little to no capacity loss. As for charging, I've been getting by fine with the level 1 charger/EVSE (i.e. 120v, 12 amps). I rarely have to charge more than 8 hours, usually 3-4. I will probably get a level 2 EVSE at some point but that's more for convenience than necessity given the small amount of driving that I do.

Has there been any gremlins that have popped up? I noticed on most of the FFE's that I have seen for sale by dealers have carfax reports that show two basic recalls on them.

There was one outstanding recall on my car, which the dealer took care of before I took the car home. This involved modifying a high voltage wiring harness and reprogramming a control module. Not sure if there were any performance issues associated with it - didn't notice anything during the test drive. IIRC there is a recall that is location specific (I guess in areas where salting roads is common?) that didn't apply to my car.

Are there any updates to software or tweaks I should think about if I do get a used 2013 or 2014 that would help in the areas of the fore mentioned 12V battery issue, charging or performance?

The recall I had done is supposed to update some software and (I think) reduce the loads on the 12v battery. I believe my 12v battery failure was mainly due to clueless salespeople not properly taking care of the car while it was on the lot for >3 months.

I was speaking to a Leaf owner today, and he installed a 220 charger in his garage, and had it updated by a company in California for charging performance. He told me about his capacity and distances during cold and warm weather. we do share the same topography, plenty of hills in Western PA. I was not considering a Leaf, as I understood they had shorter range than the FFE and battery pack cooling was different. He referred to his as a golf cart basically.

A Leaf without any battery degradation probably has a greater range than an FFE. If getting a used Leaf, you need to be careful about the model year (later model battery chemistry is more temperature resistant) and where it came from (e.g. Arizona climate is hard on the Leaf battery). OTOH, the FFE has a better thermal management system to protect the battery from extremes of heat and cold so batteries should hold up better. Range will definitely suffer in very cold weather. Not sure if the FFE has an advantage here due to the TMS.

He says he uses it as his to work and around town vehicle and it cost him about $20 a month in electric. I do not thing we have those Tiers in our area for use anymore.

For me, $20 would pay for ~7-800 miles of driving, depending upon the time of day for charging. It all depends on your local rates and your driving habits. One thing to check for is a time of use subsidy that some utilities offer instead of investing in separate metering etc. The subsidized rate may apply to ALL electricity use during certain hours, not just your EV charging.

 

[ken1939]

Thanks for the insight. That the technical stuff I was looking for. I may contact a local dealer that has one and see if I can get away with a weekend use of the one they are selling. I only had a test drive of one for 3 miles, and although for most cars I can know a lot, with the EV, not so much. It drove like a Focus, which is what I expected.

I am also not trying to get in my head how better the latest versions would be and lease. I am not a big fan of leasing, but if I can expect at least apples to apples performance to counterparts of the FFE I think I could drive it for some time.

I do not want to get one just to get rid of it in a short time frame. Will keep you posted.