2015 FFE changes.....will they kill the electric car?

[Williamffe]

"Like the gasoline Focus, the Focus Electric takes on more soundproofing, thicker window glass, and an improved suspension—to make a very quiet EV even quieter. There is also a choice of 10 different wheels available as options.

The color of a car is important. But for now, the more critical upgrades to make the Ford Focus Electric a more attractive choice of pure electric car have been delayed for at least another year. And if rumors prove true, future versions of a battery-powered Focus might take the form of a plug-in hybrid—similar to the Fusion Energi and C-Max Energi—replacing the all-electric Focus. Ford executives have long argued that plug-in hybrids have more consumer appeal than pure EVs. Ford has done well with its two existing plug-in hybrids. Adding the Focus to the line-up would put three compelling yet distinct plug-in hybrid models in the Ford dealership."

http://www.plugincars.com/2015-ford-focus-electric-bolder-look-no-change-ev-features.html

I test drove a 2014 a few days ago and the sales lady asked me if I wanted to look at the Ford Fusion, yesterday I instant messaged a rep at Ford.com about the FFE and the rep ask me if I had considered the Ford Fusion. Based on all this and the fact that the Ford CEO is openly opposed to EV's, it's not looking promising.

 

[NightHawk]

I'd reply, yes I would consider the Ford Fusion if it was available in a full electric model, not just a hybrid.
Same with the C-Max.
The larger interior compared to the Focus would be nice for us taller individuals, but all electric is the first requirement.

 

[davideos]

If you're considering an all-electric, then forget the plug in hybrid. The problem with with PHEVs is that most of the people I know who have them pride themselves on not using the gasoline. But they like the reserve. If they get the full electric, then they get twice the range. I think they feel that they will need to fill up more often than they actually do. A friend from work with a C-Max Energy told me the gas in his tank is more than 4 months old and that he needs to consume it before it gets too old.

Also, if you live in CA, the green stickers have already run out again. Granted, the CA legislature plans to pass a bill to issue more stickers in January, but considering that they are still taking applications, it is likely that the stickers will run out before they handle the backlog. White stickers (for EV's and other alternate fuel vehicles) are still unlimited.

 

[jmueller065]

I test drove a 2014 a few days ago and the sales lady asked me if I wanted to look at the Ford Fusion, yesterday I instant messaged a rep at Ford.com about the FFE and the rep ask me if I had considered the Ford Fusion. Based on all this and the fact that the Ford CEO is openly opposed to EV's, it's not looking promising.

Wow you're late to the game. Ford has always talked down about the FFE--even in 2011 when it was introduced. We've been hearing stuff like "it won't sell many" from Ford since day one.
I would suspect that even if Ford makes a Focus Energi (which really is a no-brainer since all they have to do is drop the C-Max powertrain into the Focus. The C-Max is already a "big Focus" so engineering that would probably take an afternoon) Ford will continue the FFE simply because they have to given the CARB mandates (have you checked those? They increase the required 0 emission vehicles over the next few years by a great amount).
Ford has also been a little split minded about things as well. Not only have they said (as mentioned above) "we won't sell many FFE's" they have also said in the past that "We could make a car like a Tesla Model S" and "We haven't ruled out making an electric Mustang" (yes the have on that last one: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1088986_ford-considers-diesel-hybrid-even-electric-for-new-mustang ).
Given all that I have pretty low expectations from Ford. Next week starts the "Auto show season" with the LA Auto show. It would make sense for Ford to make any announcements there, or at CES since they did introduce the FFE at CES in 2011.

 

[Williamffe]

How could I be late to the game, FFE is still first gen?

 

[unplugged]

You can be assured that Ford will not discontinue an EV. If that were to occur, Ford would no longer be able to sell cars in California, its biggest market.

California (and 10 other states) mandates the sale by major automakers of zero emission vehicles in ever increasing numbers. These automakers have no choice but to produce EVs (or fuel cells).

 

[jmueller065]

How could I be late to the game, FFE is still first gen?

You are late to the "speculating on what Ford will do" game as its been done since the beginning of the FFE. Indeed if you look there is at least one other thread with this exact same subject more than a year ago in these forums.
http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1665

 

[v_traveller]

Based on all this and the fact that the Ford CEO is openly opposed to EV's, it's not looking promising.

Can you point me to the article stating that the Ford CEO openly opposed EVs? I must have missed that. Or maybe we've read the same words, and I have a different interpretation. But to date I have yet to see a quote from Ford that says the company is opposed to BEVs. I've seen a number of quotes that reflect the cold hard truth, i.e. as jmueller pointed out, Ford doesn't expect to sell many BEVs... but I have yet to see a statement that indicates that BEVs are not in Ford's future.

In fact, looking at what Ford has stated in their latest sustainability report (2013/2014), it's clear to me that there will be BEVs in Ford's lineup in the near future as well as for the long term. Technology developed and refined for BEVs will be leveraged by PHEVs and FCEVs. I've brought this up in the prior threads on this subject, but I think it's worth mentioning again since the latest report just came out last summer, largely unchanged (which is good news):

http://corporate.ford.com/microsites/sustainability-report-2013-14/environment-products-plan-overview

I think this report is much more believable than quotes taken out of context, then twisted by journalists that seem to have a bone to pick with Ford, the Big Three, or pretty much any other car manufacturer that has chosen at this time to leverage an ICE platform for their BEV rather than design a BEV from the ground up.

What's also clear to me from this report is that Ford has no intention on being a leader in any of the alternative fuel strategies - be it BEV, PHEV, FCEV, or ???. The plan they have laid out seems to be for the role of a fast follower, so that they can respond to market demand as it changes to favor various powertrains. In contrast to other ICE automakers, Nissan's sustainability report clearly trumpets their desire to be leaders in the BEV market. And although I haven't seen Toyota's report, I'm betting that they're looking to be leaders in the FCEV market.

I love Ford's approach, as a consumer as well as a stockholder. I'm hoping that in my lifetime, we'd be able to walk into any dealership and say, "I want that car, and I want one with a pure electric powertrain". Ford seems to be the manufacturer that is leading this approach; Mercedes, GM, and perhaps VW have seem to have also embraced this approach, judging by their recent BEV offerings and hints toward the future.

 

[unplugged]

I'm hoping that in my lifetime, ....

I'm hoping in my lifetime that I can walk into a dealer and the salesperson says, "We only have one drive option for these cars, and that's electric."

 

[michael]

If you're considering an all-electric, then forget the plug in hybrid. The problem with with PHEVs is that most of the people I know who have them pride themselves on not using the gasoline. But they like the reserve. If they get the full electric, then they get twice the range. I think they feel that they will need to fill up more often than they actually do. A friend from work with a C-Max Energy told me the gas in his tank is more than 4 months old and that he needs to consume it before it gets too old.

Also, if you live in CA, the green stickers have already run out again. Granted, the CA legislature plans to pass a bill to issue more stickers in January, but considering that they are still taking applications, it is likely that the stickers will run out before they handle the backlog. White stickers (for EV's and other alternate fuel vehicles) are still unlimited.

I've decided I don't much like PHEVs when it comes to public charging. Not only do they fill up at half the rate of most BEVs (3 vs 6 kW usually) but because they have such small batteries, the owners are perpetually putting them on the charger. Charge up, drive to the bank, and charge up again even if it's only for fifteen minutes. But then they leave the car at the charging station for the next six hours and BEV's can't hook up.

And the green stickers are a joke. I don't begrudge them to a Volt or an Energi, but the plug in Prius, with it's ridiculous AA sized battery really shouldn't get any of the benefits.

 

[michael]

You can be assured that Ford will not discontinue an EV. If that were to occur, Ford would no longer be able to sell cars in California, its biggest market.

California (and 10 other states) mandates the sale by major automakers of zero emission vehicles in ever increasing numbers. These automakers have no choice but to produce EVs (or fuel cells).

While I agree that Ford is unlikely to discontinue having an EV, they can get around the California rules by buying EV credits from Tesla. Tesla gets up to 7 credits (currently worth about $28,000 on the open market) for each car it sells and it sells them to other manufacturers. If not for these credits, Tesla would be losing money like mad.

 

[Williamffe]

I head from a news report on Autoline Daily YouTube channel about a month ago that the ford CEO is openly against EV's.

"Fields replaced Alan Mulally this summer after the former Boeing CEO gave Ford a top-to-bottom makeover that included shrugging off all but two brands and cutting down on the number of platforms to just a few. But one area Mulally seemed disinterested in was pure electric vehicles, giving the Focus Electric a tiny marketing budget but one of the highest MSRPs at $39,995. Ford has since slashed $10,000 off the price of its sole electric car, but it’s done measurably more to promote its two plug-in hybrid models, the Fusion Energi and C-Max Energi."
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/10/27/ford-ceo-says-build-tesla/

I think Ford may drop full electric and promote plugin hybrid. One things for sure, the dealer union and Big car manufactures see Tesla as serious competition.

 

[v_traveller]

Yeah, I read that same story. In that excerpt the only apparent fact that I see is that the FFE was given a tiny marketing budget and high MSRP. I guess somewhere along the line that was interpreted or spun by the author into an assertion that the CEO is disinterested and/or openly against EVs.

Well, the $39K MSRP at the time was in line with the MSRPs of fully loaded Volts and LEAFs, so I'd hardly call that a negative gesture on Ford's part. As for the tiny marketing budget... what Ford did openly say last year is that the FFE a "niche" vehicle. And from what I've seen in the past, Ford hasn't thrown a lot of marketing effort into their niche vehicles, i.e. Ford GT, Boss 302, or any of the SVO/SVT vehicles... seems to me that they are expected to sell by word of mouth, and in low quantities. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think a tiny marketing budget is indicative of the a CEO's or in Ford's disinterest in a product, it just confirms the FFE's status as a niche vehicle, which is pretty lofty company if you ask me (I still want a Ford GT!).

By the way, I'm not sure how small a marketing effort has to be to be considered tiny but consider this... most of us have benefit from about $3K to $6K of incentives to lease or buy our FFE (not counting $7.5K of the lease incentive since that's from Uncle Sam). So on the 2000 or so units sold in the last 12 months, that's about $6M to$12M in rebates to the consumers. Personally I'd prefer to have that money in my pocket rather than see a Super Bowl ad or two touting the FFE. Perhaps others would pay $3K to $6K more for a FFE if it were on TV, but not me.

 

[jmueller065]

Don't forget the "elephant in the room"...The chairman of the board: Bill Ford. He has always championed green projects inside Ford (it wouldn't surprise me if the FFE was done at his urging). The green roof on the top of the F-150 plant is his, the solar panels at the Focus plant are his (yeah did you know that: they covered an entire unused parking lot with solar panels).
See here:

The new plant demonstrates Ford’s commitment to green production technologies. MAP boasts a 500 kW solar power generation system – one of the largest systems in the state – allowing the plant to operate on a blend of renewable and conventional electricity.

 

[michael]

Ford, at least, hasn't jumped on the hydrogen bandwagon. They are still in the electric camp. Toyota, by contrast, has abandoned its BEV lineup altogether in favor of hydrogen, saying "no one is knocking on our door to build another electric vehicle"

http://green.autoblog.com/2014/10/28/toyota-says-no-one-wants-a-toyota-electric-car/

 

[nousernogood]

No... if noting else they will keep it as is for the CA carbon credits...

But more likely they are showing signs of possibly wanting to increase sales...

Ford lowered the MSRP to $29,995 plus 4k cash back...

Possible range increase to 81 miles most likely via a software update to increase the amount of battery available...
http://www.fordinsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?41618-2015-Ford-Focus-Electric-Offers-Range-Upgrade&p=343818#post343818
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evsbs.shtml

Fords new CEO sound more pro EV than the outgoing Alan McNully if I spelled it right...
He states Ford could build a Tesla...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095125_ford-can-design-tesla-like-electric-car-ceo-says-does-higher-power-charging-push-mean-it-may

Ford is also pushing for a 150kw rechage rate to the CCS standard...
"It appears that Ford, alone among the participants, is now pushing to expand the power-delivery capability of future Combined Charging System (CCS) DC quick chargers to as much as 150 kilowattsAn engineer at another automaker who's involved with the technical committee working on that standard told Green Car Reports that other participants didn't understand why Ford insisted on such high power. Today's Tesla Supercharger fast-charging stations deliver a maximum of 120 to 135 kW, with plans rumored to boost that further to 150 kW."

Reported in another thread here Ford is opening the FFE to employee pricing..
"recently(as in sometime in the past couple weeks) Ford has made the A/X/Z plan available for the FFE"
http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2341&start=30

Lowering the price alone makes me think they are going to try and get more volume with the 2015s...
Otherwise lowering the price makes no sense...

 

[WattsUp]

Possible range increase to 81 miles most likely via a software update to increase the amount of battery available.

Or, maybe the 2015 is lighter? Or, has even rollier tires?

 

[Poobah]

Ford is not trying to kill the electric car but will produce what is wanted. Our electric cars are heavily subsidized financially by tax breaks while simultaneously being mandated. Otherwise nobody but the financially unrestrained would purchase one. Ford LOOSES money on each electric car because of the cost of the battery. The single reason is the cost of the battery of sufficient size to provide enough range for thhe average Joe. If I did not have other vehiles at my disposal, I would not have purchased my electric car.

I agree with Ford that the smartest use of electric cars is with a range extender. The battery can then be sized to serve the vast majority of urban/suburban trips while providing an ICE utilizing the efficient Atkinson cycle. Thefore the vehicle will provide the advantages of electric without range issues, the efficiency of an Atkinson ICE without its low Hp and torque issues, in a package that is seamless to the operator.

When the $7,500 Federal subsity and the $5,000 Georgia subsity expire, almost all of us will realize that a Plug-in Hybrid is the way to go. Ford realizes that car development must be based on a marketplace without heavy government subsities and that is why they are the leader in Plug In Hybrid models already in the marketplace.

I for one took advantage if the $12,500 in subsities available to me on my FFE, but I know that a PHEV will be my next car.

 

[unplugged]

While I agree that Ford is unlikely to discontinue having an EV, they can get around the California rules by buying EV credits from Tesla. Tesla gets up to 7 credits (currently worth about $28,000 on the open market) for each car it sells and it sells them to other manufacturers. If not for these credits, Tesla would be losing money like mad.

It is far too expensive to purchase credits. If credits were reasonable, manufacturers such as Fiat (the CEO actively suggested for people not to buy the 500e) would buy credits rather than build an EV today.

And of course, Ford is the largest seller of vehicles in California. There is no feasible way to buy credits when Ford sales are so high.

 

[unplugged]

This issue of Ford continuing to sell electric vehicles shouldn't even be up for discussion. By 2025, automakers MUST build 800,000 zero emission vehicles PER YEAR in the U.S. alone. Ford is, depending on who's counting, the #4 or #5 automaker in the world by volume. Ford has NO choice but to build EVs. This isn't a question of interest. The CARB ZEV compliant states make up more than 40 percent of sales in the U.S. To suggest that Ford will decide to let an EV model fade away isn't in the cards.

Each year, an increasing requirement of ZEV sales is mandated by California and nine other states. This ZEV requirement cannot be fulfilled by PHEVs or hybrids. And no, Ford cannot buy enough ZEV credits from Tesla to equal the amount of mandated sales necessary under the CARB mandates. Tesla simply doesn't build enough cars to sell that amount of necessary credits.

Ford is into EVs for the long term. I don't like their lack of marketing. I don't like the fact that they don't produce the amount of vehicles that Nissan does. I don't like the lack of dealer support. But there is simply no way Ford is leaving the EV market. They can't.