Fast Charging

[jstack6]

When will FORD add a Fast Charging port and option to the FFE ?

They have talked about it since they made the car but I don't see any news about it. They wanted to wait until the SAE Combo was ready and now it is but they still don't seem to have any plans to add it.

Even the new BMW i3 has the SAE Combo option but there are very few around. Even their and the Nissan CHAdeMO is only 24 Kw and up to 30 kW each. Tesla charges at 125 kW with their nationwide Super Chargers and have over 100 in the USA with 200 more in the next 2 year coming. Maybe we can get FORD to option the Super Charge for the FFE. It would only take about 5 minutes for 23 kw in the FORD.

 

[hybridbear]

When will FORD add a Fast Charging port and option to the FFE ?

They have talked about it since they made the car but I don't see any news about it. They wanted to wait until the SAE Combo was ready and now it is but they still don't seem to have any plans to add it.

Even the new BMW i3 has the SAE Combo option but there are very few around. Even their and the Nissan CHAdeMO is only 24 Kw and up to 30 kW each. Tesla charges at 125 kW with their nationwide Super Chargers and have over 100 in the USA with 200 more in the next 2 year coming. Maybe we can get FORD to option the Super Charge for the FFE. It would only take about 5 minutes for 23 kw in the FORD.

Tesla can charge at that many kW because their battery is so large. The FFE could not charge anywhere near that fast because the battery couldn't handle it. That's why the Volt and early Nissan Leafs were limited to 3.3 kW versus 6.6 kW in the FFE. There were/are concerns about charging faster than that and the battery longevity.

 

[sefs]

The FFE is regen limited at 60 kW. Meaning, it can charge via regenerative braking up to 60 kW. Now, this doesn't mean a sustained charge would be warranted that high, but a 30 minute 80% charge would certainly be in the realm of possibility. Ford just wasn't interested in giving the car that capability.

 

[unplugged]

The FFE is regen limited at 60 kW. Meaning, it can charge via regenerative braking up to 60 kW. Now, this doesn't mean a sustained charge would be warranted that high, but a 30 minute 80% charge would certainly be in the realm of possibility. Ford just wasn't interested in giving the car that capability.

I think it is a pretty strong guess that the 2nd generation FFE will have a CCS DC fast charge port. There is really no way to add it to the current FFE without redesigning the fender and charge port door.

 

[EVA]

Ford might put that port in, if they saw there was demand for it. Outside of California and a few cities, those fast DC chargers just don't exist. So for the few hundred people that might use it sometime, not sure they would do all that work.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the limiting factor on rapid charging getting rid of the heat? Since the Leaf is all passive, that battery couldn't possibly take really rapid charging. With the FFE though - isn't there a possibility the thermal management could take care of the heat?

You would be amazed to hear a Tesla when it is being supercharged. The fan in the car runs super fast and hard. It actually reverses the air flow through the radiators, blowing air out the front of the car instead of back through the car. There is a heck of a lot going on when that thing is taking over 300 Amps at 400V.

Can you imagine the design issues trying to manage that much power, not electrocute somebody, or blow things up?

 

[hybridbear]

Ford might put that port in, if they saw there was demand for it. Outside of California and a few cities, those fast DC chargers just don't exist. So for the few hundred people that might use it sometime, not sure they would do all that work.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the limiting factor on rapid charging getting rid of the heat? Since the Leaf is all passive, that battery couldn't possibly take really rapid charging. With the FFE though - isn't there a possibility the thermal management could take care of the heat?

You would be amazed to hear a Tesla when it is being supercharged. The fan in the car runs super fast and hard. It actually reverses the air flow through the radiators, blowing air out the front of the car instead of back through the car. There is a heck of a lot going on when that thing is taking over 300 Amps at 400V.

Can you imagine the design issues trying to manage that much power, not electrocute somebody, or blow things up?

How does Tesla control battery temp when someone takes a road trip with SuperCharging? It seems like the HVB would get very hot.

In the Tesla can you tell when the HVB is hot? Since in our Fusion Hybrid the battery is in the trunk area we find that the trunk gets very warm when the HVB is warm. This happens even though the fans to cool the HVB don't vent the warm air into the trunk.

 

[RPadTV]

Ford might put that port in, if they saw there was demand for it. Outside of California and a few cities, those fast DC chargers just don't exist. So for the few hundred people that might use it sometime, not sure they would do all that work.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the limiting factor on rapid charging getting rid of the heat? Since the Leaf is all passive, that battery couldn't possibly take really rapid charging. With the FFE though - isn't there a possibility the thermal management could take care of the heat?

Ford sells the most in California, simply because of compliance laws. It should add DCFC in the future in order to stay competitive.

As for the Leaf, all current models can be outfitted with CHAdeMO fast chargers.

 

[unplugged]

Ford sells the most in California, simply because of compliance laws. It should add DCFC in the future in order to stay competitive.

Correct. And I might add that Ford has no particular interest in redesigning the current FFE in any way until there is a need to do it. This is best demonstrated by failing to update the FFE grill/bumper assembly and hood to match the 2015 Focus. The FFE redesign would cost very little since the hood and bumper would just match the current car. Even more curious is the fact that Ford didn't bother to redesign the steering wheel or dashboard to update to the 2015 gas Focus. (Ford claims the new steering wheel doesn't have the right buttons to match the FFE dashboard requirements. What? So Ford will keep the old steering wheel forever? Ha.) It can be assumed that this lack of change was done for some reason, but we are left to guess why. A body redesign is usually considered when the metal stamping and molds are nearing end of life. I suppose the FFE molds are pretty much like new. The dash redesign was probably not done because Ford figured an entire new steering wheel and dash would be placed in a few years, anyway.

In any case, the issue is not necessarily one of demand for the CCS DCFC. The real reasons for Ford to implement fast charging is a) Ford has committed to the CCS system; and b) competitively Ford needs to offer something the Leaf, BMW i3, and Chevy Spark already offer.

This brings us to surmising the reasons behind Ford waiting until January to place into service the 2015 FFE when there is nothing that has been changed for this model, except a mirror redesign of the gasser rear hatch. This is despite the fact that the gas Focus will be introduced in September. This is indeed a mystery. Perhaps Ford is setting up for a May or June 2016 redesign of the FFE as a 2017 model?

 

[EVA]

OK Hybridbear, you lost me HVB? No clue what that is, so kind of hard to answer your questions.

Unplugged - thanks for that reasoning. What you say makes sense. I looked at it upside down - my usual way of looking at things.

 

[jmueller065]

HVB = High Voltage Battery (e.g. the traction batteries in the FFE used to move the car around) as opposed to the 12V battery used for all the cars electronics.

 

[WattsUp]

OK Hybridbear, you lost me HVB? No clue what that is, so kind of hard to answer your questions.

HVB is short for "high voltage battery" (the phrase used by the owner's manual for the two big battery packs in the FFE, versus the normal "low voltage" 12V battery).

 

[ElSupreme]

How does Tesla control battery temp when someone takes a road trip with SuperCharging? It seems like the HVB would get very hot.

In the Tesla can you tell when the HVB is hot? Since in our Fusion Hybrid the battery is in the trunk area we find that the trunk gets very warm when the HVB is warm. This happens even though the fans to cool the HVB don't vent the warm air into the trunk.

The Model S has liquid cooled (uses AC compressor to chill the battery coolant as well) battery case. And the very small cells 18650s have lots of surface area to cool. Coolant is pumped all around the smaller cells.

Also with an 85kWh battery pack and charging at 135kW is only a 1.6C charge rate. Where doing the same relative rate in a LEAF or FFE is about 38kW. The size of the total battery, coupled with the tiny cells allow Tesla to cool their pack while charging. But even still they are charging at relatively low C rates.

 

[hybridbear]

How does Tesla control battery temp when someone takes a road trip with SuperCharging? It seems like the HVB would get very hot.

In the Tesla can you tell when the HVB is hot? Since in our Fusion Hybrid the battery is in the trunk area we find that the trunk gets very warm when the HVB is warm. This happens even though the fans to cool the HVB don't vent the warm air into the trunk.

The Model S has liquid cooled (uses AC compressor to chill the battery coolant as well) battery case. And the very small cells 18650s have lots of surface area to cool. Coolant is pumped all around the smaller cells.

Also with an 85kWh battery pack and charging at 135kW is only a 1.6C charge rate. Where doing the same relative rate in a LEAF or FFE is about 38kW. The size of the total battery, coupled with the tiny cells allow Tesla to cool their pack while charging. But even still they are charging at relatively low C rates.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. In the track day thread it was mentioned about Teslas limiting power output after awhile as the HVB got too hot. Does anyone have a way of monitoring Tesla battery temp like some are doing in the FFE with the special ScanGauge?

 

[ElSupreme]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. In the track day thread it was mentioned about Teslas limiting power output after awhile as the HVB got too hot. Does anyone have a way of monitoring Tesla battery temp like some are doing in the FFE with the special ScanGauge?

I don't think the Model S has a tool to view battery temperatures. It certainly doesn't display that information (or even a generic temp gauge) on the UI. I did ask some of the Tesla people at ReFuel about power limiting. They seemed to imply that the Model S doesn't react fast enough to hard driving to ramp up the battery cooling. And it being very aggressive in preventing the batteries from overheating.

The Tesla Roadster has such a tool, but as far as I know no one has battery temps for the Model S, outside of Tesla themselves.