FFE range

[davidd]

Is anyone pushing their Focus electric to its limits? I want to be able to commute about 60 miles, some city some highway, between charges.

 

[WattsUp]

In the general case, 60 miles of range is easily achievable in the FFE. The advertised range is 76 miles, but conservative driving patterns can often even extend this (a bit).

However, there are some extreme circumstances that could affect your particular case:

• Is your route flat, or very hilly?
• Do you live in a very cold or hot climate?

The climate is a particularly interesting one. Not only can very cold weather intrinsically reduce the range (as it affects battery performance), this problem is often compounded by the need to run the HVAC heat to stay comfortable, defrost windows, etc.. Heat uses a lot of power and can significantly reduce range.

Running the A/C uses much less energy than the heat, and so summer HVAC usage is less of an issue for range. But, in very hot climates, the same refrigeration unit is used to cool the battery, and this prolonged usage could noticeably reduce range (though not as much as the battery performance and heating issues of winter).

So, it may be that in summer months, making your commute is easy (with miles to spare), but in the winter it is impossible (or, at least, not without some sacrifices, such as no heat in winter).

 

[jachady]

Are there any chargepoints along the way that you could give yourself a little cushion?

 

[jmueller065]

I have a coworker who has the exact same FFE as I do. His commute is just above 50 miles round trip. Even in the dead of winter he is able to make his commute using some pretty extreme measures to conserve power (a separate 12V powered defroster, and a 12V heated blanket so that he doesn't need to use the HVAC heater).
This is in MI where temps were quite cold this past winter (-10F in some cases).

 

[davidd]

Thanks for the input. I live in Dallas, Tx and drive about 55 miles one way to work. My biggest expense every month is for fuel. I have wanted to go with a EV but just couldn't make the dollars work when the FFEs were $50,000. Now that they are a reasonable price am going to give it a try.

 

[jachady]

Have a go and ENJOY!! I think you'll be fine in TX.

ps - I know a really nice guy to get one from

 

[davidd]

In Texas? I have worked for this Ford dealer for 30 years. So I should be able to get the hook up on purchase and free charging.

 

[brogult]

@davidd

We've had our new Focus here in SoCal, the land of the freeways, for bit over a week. I'm not an experienced expert yet, but I've already learned a few things about range.

1) At reasonable temperatures (not Minnesota or Wisconsin winter) the HVAC just doesn't use that much energy. If you have Level 2 charging at each end, you can preheat or precool the car before you leave and then you can use much less--often zero--heat or cooling once underway. This also preconditions the battery, which is a much underappreciated technical feature of the FFE.

2) It is easy to get good braking and driving scores, which indicate how efficiently you are using the regeneration features. Regenerated energy accounts for a third of your usable range.

3) SPEED KILLS--your range! My first experience with range anxiety was when we drove our FFE home. It is all freeway and I was impressed by how nicely the car winds up to 75-80 MPH and just zooms along. Then I saw the GOM (range indicator) dropping quite quickly, almost 2-for-1 and actually started to worry. I even backed off on the speed just a bit. We got home with 22 miles remaining, so it used a bit over 50 miles of estimated range for a 32 mile trip. So at 80 MPH on the freeway, the range is probably 40-45 miles. Driving stoplight to stoplight in a 40 MPH speed zone, the range will easily exceed 100 miles.

4) Altitude matters. Hills don't matter as much if you go up and then come down--the car is amazingly efficient at getting that energy back. However, if your final destination is 1000 feet higher than your starting point, you will lose some range. If your destination is 1000 feet lower, your energy usage will be reduced, even for fairly long trips. My wife has a 5.1 mile commute with about a 550 ft elevation drop. Her energy usage on the way there is about 145 Wh/mile, on the way back it is 275 Wh/mile. The car is averaging 250 Wh/mile, or 4 miles per kWh.

So YES, you most likely can make that commute in an FFE, as long as you can depend on the charging at either end. It is possible you might need to slow down a bit if you are used to very high speed driving.

 

[WattsUp]

Regenerated energy accounts for a third of your usable range.

Hmm, how did you come up with this figure of 1/3? It makes no sense. The energy originally stored in the battery always accounts for all the usable range. Regenerated energy actually accounts for none of the usable range.

Regenerated energy is simply that energy recaptured (converted from car's kinetic energy) as the car resists forward motion (slowing down, or rolling downhill). This is what it is called regeneration, and not generation. In other words, regeneration never represents "free" energy that magically gives you more range -- the recaptured energy always originally came from the battery, previously expended to move the car (and was thus converted into kinetic energy). Even rolling down a long hill, at least the equivalent energy must have already been spent to reach the top of the hill.

So, don't think of regeneration as a way to "produce" more, new energy that you didn't have in the first place (which it is not). Think of it as a way to avoid wasting as little of the energy you started with as possible (which is all the energy, and range, you ever had).

 

[brogult]

@WattsUp

I think we're having a semantic argument here. It is just like recycled products--there has to be an original product to recycle. Nonetheless, one can easily waste the product as opposed to recycling it. And every bit of product you recycle is a bit you don't need to procure new.

I understand that the regen energy doesn't "magically appear". My point is just that if you don't recapture it, you lose about a third of your range. You can waste all of your regen energy if you try--just shift into "N" when coasting and always wait until the last second to slam on the brakes. Most FFE drivers probably take the regen energy for granted and Ford (or Magna) should get some credit--it is really easy to be efficient. However, it is not impossible to have a very inefficient driving style.

 

[Abelgoddard]

Thanks for the input. I live in Dallas, Tx and drive about 55 miles one way to work. My biggest expense every month is for fuel. I have wanted to go with a EV but just couldn't make the dollars work when the FFEs were $50,000. Now that they are a reasonable price am going to give it a try.

David, I'm just south of Dallas, in Cedar Hill. My round trip is <40miles, and if I had a level 2 charger at home, I would feel very comfortable with a 60 mile round trip and no charge at work. As it stands, I don't have the level 2 installed yet, but I do have access to a 110 outlet at work. I try to not abuse that, but I'll charge once a week or so.

Given how flat Dallas is, I think the FFE will be great for you.

Heading into my first winter with the FFE, though. I'm not sure how my usage will fair, depending on how much I'm going to be using the heater or not. My feeling is that I can mostly deal with the chill by wearing a coat and gloves and using the seat heater. So far I've used the heater twice, and it does pretty drastically drain the battery.

If you're in my area, we can meet up if you like.

 

[jmueller065]

That 1/3 figure is a bit high. For most of my driving is more like 1/10 and it can vary greatly depending on where you are driving (you could drive 50 miles down the highway using cruise and only regen when you exit).

 

[WattsUp]

I understand that the regen energy doesn't "magically appear". My point is just that if you don't recapture it, you lose about a third of your range.

Agreed... this just seems to be semantics.

However, I still contend that regeneration can sometimes have nothing to do with the range achieved (e.g., driving at a steady speed over flat terrain with virtually zero regeneration, one can achieve about 76 miles of range, provided the Wh/mi is kept around 250). So, while I suppose you must mean "on average", I am still curious how you came up with this figure of 1/3.

I guess I also took exception to the wording. Lacking further explanation about what you meant, the wording kinda made it sound like 1/3 of the energy came from "outside" the car. We should be careful with our explanations. I think many folks new to the way EVs work sometimes (incorrectly) perceive regeneration as a way to "get more energy". And it is (in a sense) if one understands that it is only a way to keep more of the energy originally stored in the battery. Your recycling analogy is a great way illustrate the point (e.g., recycling never generates more aluminum cans, it is just a way to keep the original amount of aluminum).

Unfortunately, simplistic explanations sometimes get translated into frightful misconceptions like, "when driving an EV, you should do a lot of extra braking to get more energy".

 

[NightHawk]

That 1/3 figure is a bit high. For most of my driving is more like 1/10 and it can vary greatly depending on where you are driving (you could drive 50 miles down the highway using cruise and only regen when you exit).

Yep 1/10 regenerative average is closer for my experience over the past month as well.
I get higher percentage regen miles with local surface street driving compared to longer distance freeway driving.
So a mix with more freeway driving miles brings the regen average down a lot.
If I get stuck in a rush hour stop&go slowdown for miles on the freeway, I get lots of regen miles and the estimated range can get up to 100miles then.

 

[brogult]

@WattsUp

Unfortunately, simplistic explanations sometimes get translated into frightful misconceptions like, "when driving an EV, you should do a lot of extra braking to get more energy".

I hadn't thought of dumbing the conversation down quite that much...but OK! I get my 1/3 figure by looking at my display after I shut the car off. It gives you that figure. I think there is a menu elsewhere that adds up your regen energy, but I couldn't find it just now.

I live at the base of a mountain and do a lot of stop/go driving with significant uphill and downhill segments. I'm sure that pushes the number up a bit. I did bit more freeway driving and that figure did drop a bit. I can see a 1/4 figure being realistic for some people.

I understand your theoretical example where you could get maximum range without any regen, but that is pretty unlikely. If you are getting no regen, in my experience you are either going up the mountain or driving at freeway speeds--and will not achieve anywhere near maximum range or Wh/mile on that trip. So for what I consider the average driving cycle, efficiently recovering the regen energy is a significant component of getting maximum range.

 

[michael]

The extra miles you get in stop and go traffic are not because of the regeneration...it's because you are going slowly in stop and go traffic. What the regeneration does is reduce (not completely avoid) the energy penalty of stopping-and-going.

In an ICE car, braking converts kinetic energy into wasted heat. In an EV or hybrid, some portion of the kinetic energy is stored back into the battery. And even if the brake coach say 100%, it isn't and can't be....some energy is lost in recharging the battery, and some more is lost coming out of the battery later on to "go".

WattsUp is right on the money. Best thing of all is straight and level, never need to touch the brakes.

 

[WattsUp]

I get my 1/3 figure by looking at my display after I shut the car off. It gives you that figure.

Okay, but I think you've misinterpreted it. That display shows a mileage estimate (based on the energy captured by regeneration) that overlaps with the "main" range estimate. The display isn't showing miles that can be considered "in addition" to the main estimate -- is a simple translation of the captured energy into miles as something that is easy to relate to (than, say, a read-out of the same thing in kWh).

With your claim that 1/3 of the maximum range comes from regenerated miles, you've basically "double counted" the energy, which is why the ratio makes no sense. Remember, "behind" every regenerated mile shown in the display (when you turn the car off) was more than a mile (based on the same original energy) that had already been shown in the main mileage estimate when you turned the car on.

Why "more than a mile"? The reality is, you actually lose range with regeneration since it involves a series of (imperfect) energy conversions. Any process that converts electrical energy into kinetic and then from kinetic energy back into electric necessarily leaves with you less energy than you started with. Going through these conversions is always less efficient than not doing them at all. Doing a lot of regeneration actually decreases the maximum achievable range versus having done none. Yes, when you need to slow down or stop, regenerative braking is much more efficient than friction braking (which throws all the kinetic energy away), but regenerative braking is still a net loss due to the energy lost in the conversions.

Thus, the car's true maximum range can only be achieved by avoiding regeneration -- by avoiding all unnecessary energy conversions. A long freeway trip (or a trip at any speed, so long as it is steady) on flat terrain is a (non-theoretical) example of using the energy stored in the battery in the most efficient manner possible -- converting it once and only into kinetic energy to move the car, and not stopping until the end of the trip. The longest range (for the speed driven) can only be achieved in this type of scenario -- and is purely a function of the energy originally stored in the battery.

I understand your theoretical example where you could get maximum range without any regen, but that is pretty unlikely.

No, you can actually go about 76 miles, even at freeway speeds, if you keep you keep consumption 250-260 Wh/mi -- without doing any regeneration at all. I've done it.

Again, I think you've got it a bit backwards. Regeneration will decrease the maximum range versus not having done any. As michael said, regeneration is merely a way to improve the inherent inefficiency of stopping and then going again, but stopping and going is still less efficient than simply "going".

 

[Abelgoddard]

I certainly can't claim to be an expert here, but it sounds like wattsup is wrong, if I understand him correctly. They way I read that last post is that 76 miles is the maximum distance you could drive at all on a single full charge, which is just not true. I think most people can attest to that, which is why I think I'm not fully understanding what wattsup said. If the most efficient use of the energy is to expend it once and not 'regenerate' any of it back into the battery, how are people clocking 100+ miles on a single charge? I mean, I know that one time on my normal 17 mile route to work (roughly 3/4 is Dallas city traffic) I've started with an estimate of 70 something miles, and ended with a regen number of +15. My battery display showed an actual decrease of a very small amount, maybe 2-3%, I guess. When I got in at lunch, my GOM showed in the 70s again. I don't remember the precise numbers, but both were in the 70s for sure. This tells me that the regen gave me a pretty good extension of range.

Again, maybe I'm misinterpreting what is meant?

 

[WattsUp]

I certainly can't claim to be an expert here, but it sounds like wattsup is wrong, if I understand him correctly. They way I read that last post is that 76 miles is the maximum distance you could drive at all on a single full charge, which is just not true.

No, sorry if I was confusing. I didn't mean to say 76 miles was the "absolute" maximum range.

I meant to illustrate that 76 miles is the maximum range you can drive if you were to consume an average of 250 Wh/mi specifically. With this rate of energy consumption, there is no way any amount of regeneration will ever help you drive further.

You can even do the math:

19 kWh (usable battery charge) / 250 Wh/mi = 76 miles

But, as you mention, clearly people have traveled further than 76 miles in their FFE. (I have done so.) But, these people have accomplished this by averaging less than 250 Wh/mi. In fact, there is no other way they could have done so.

... how are people clocking 100+ miles on a single charge?

Those people simply aren't driving at 60 mph and averaging 250 Wh/mi (which would only yield about 76 miles, as shown above).

Instead, they must be averaging something like 185 Wh/mi, which the math shows:

19 kWh (usable battery charge) / 185 Wh/mi = 100 miles

This means they are probably driving around at something closer to 40 mph. In other words, these "100 milers" are people that do a lot of slower, around town driving, and rarely use the freeway. It certainly isn't because they are "doing a lot of regeneration".

I mean, I know that one time on my normal 17 mile route to work (roughly 3/4 is Dallas city traffic) I've started with an estimate of 70 something miles, and ended with a regen number of +15.

Unfortunately, you've been mislead by the way in which Ford chose to display changes in the mileage estimate with the so-called "status" number (which is actually very useful once you understand how it works, but often leads to misconceptions about regeneration).

The status number (in your example, "+15") does not represent "miles from regeneration" at all. This is a very common misconception among FFE owners. The status number is merely the difference between the original estimate (adjusted for the miles driven so far) and the current estimate. These two estimates are controlled entirely by your current remaining battery capacity and average Wh/mi.

usable battery capacity remaining / average Wh/mi = estimated miles remaining

While certainly influenced by regeneration, the estimates are influenced much more by other factors. For example, simply drive more slowly and/or somehow use less energy, reducing your average Wh/mi, and your status will go up. Drive faster and/or somehow use more energy, and your status will go down. Either outcome results from the straightfoward application of the basic formula shown above.

At any rate, interpreting the status number (and surplus number, when the navi is engaged) has been covered at length in these forums, by me and others:

FFE 101: A positive "status number" does not indicate regen

jmueller065 has also written an excellent blog entry about the topic:

http://jamiegeek.myevblog.com/2013/...-focus-electrics-mysterious-status-indicator/

 

[davideos]

I think we're getting mixed up in the examples. Let me see if I can help...but I'll likely just confuse it more.
-Range is dependent on what your watt/hours per mile is. If you drive fast, your watt/hours per mile will be high. Drive slower and more conservatively, your watt/hours per mile will be low. A low watt/hours per mile gives you lots a range.
-Regen will give you more miles...sort of. It depends on where the regen power came from. Lets say you are at the top of a hill and you start going down hill. You brake the whole way down and capture 100% of your braking energy. In this situation, you will get a gain....extra miles from regen. If you drive on a flat road and speed up to 84mi/hour and then brake and recapture 100% as you come to a stop and then speed up to 84mi/hour again and stop again as before and repeat this over and over again, your will also get miles from regen, but you will not go further than if you traveled the same distance on this flat road at the same average speed. Why? Because the energy captured from regen came from the battery in the first place; and as stated, converting your forward moving energy into electricity and storing it in the battery is not 100% efficient.
-Driving on city streets is typically slower, but more stops. This is where hybrid vehicles were so revolutionary. Slower city driving is more efficient, but all the stops are killing the fuel efficiency. Highway driving is less efficient, but has no stops. Since hybrid vehicles could recapture the energy from all those stops, city driving became more efficient than highway driving...but not because regen "creates" energy, but rather, "recycles" energy. If you could drive at city speeds without having to stop, you will get the absolute best miles per gallon...or miles per watt hour.

Bottom line, regen is great and I love having it, but I'm not going to "ride the brake" to get more miles...in fact, you can't in an FFE. I though it was funny when my son asked if we could put a windmill on the car to generate electricity as we drove. I hope he understood when I said it would take more energy to move the car forward because of all the wind resistance than would be created than I would generate.