HV Battery Issues - Out of Warranty

[mattbrown]

An EV nightmare coming true

Three weeks ago while my wife was driving our 2012 FFE, the Yellow Wrench symbol appeared. The car drove home fine and she parked it for the evening. In the morning I drove my car to work (30 kms) without warnings, plugged into the Level 2 charger at work and went about my day. After work I unplugged the charger and went to starting the car as normal. I had no power on the dash and flashing/flicker dimly LED running lights. I placed the car back on the level 2 charger and now could start the car to accessory mode, but the running lights would quickly begin flashing and flickering again. The Yellow Wrench warning was back and I also noticed the car hadn't charge after being plugged in for 8 hours on "charge now".

I have read forum posts about 12v battery issues and since my FFE still had the original 12v battery, I assumed this was a 12v issue. I took a work truck home and returned the next day with a multimeter. After reading 10.2 v over the battery terminals, I went to the local ford dealer, bought a 12v battery and replaced the 12v battery. With the car of the charger, I started the care and immediately got the SSN and Yellow Wrench warnings. Cycle the car on and off a few times with no difference. This is when I realized how bad things were and I had CAA tow my car to my local Ford dealer.

So far the tech has done or confirmed the following:
- The original 12v battery was bad (tested 62 CCA, spec is 390 CCA)
- Over 50 error codes were found on a Memory Test of all modules
- Vehicle would drive in shop after codes cleared, but SSN message came on for the tech
- Completed on demand tests on: PCM, TCM and BECM all pass with memory codes (PCM - P0AA0, BECM - P0AA6, TCM - P1A0A)
- Tech cleared module memory codes and road tested, Yellow Wrench came back on, checked modules and codes are back (PCM - P0AA0, BECM - P0AA6, TCM - P1A0A).
- Upper High Voltage battery has failed coolant leak inspection

That is the current status of my FFE. The dealership is waiting to hear back from Ford service engineering before providing a repair estimate. I am guessing this will be a HV battery replacement. My car was a Ford press vehicle and it's warranty started May 2012, it has 111000 kms (69,000 is miles) and is out of of warranty by 4 months My FFE already had all recall orders completed, including the bulletin for the lower HV connection. My car had corrosion on this connection and the battery was shipped to MI for repairs.

I will post the repair estimate when I get it, but I highly doubt it will be economical to repair this car. I hope for others this doesn't become a reoccurring issue out of warranty

 

[skyguy_6153]

I had the exact same problem, and I did a write up on fixing mines recently. The leak causes an isolation fault rendering the pack useless until you go in remove the modules, clean all the leaked coolant out, remove heat exchangers (cooling plates) between each cell in each module, dry off the bus bars, wires, and components that got wet, and reassemble. When you reassemble, leave the heat exchangers, cooling lines, and cooling assembly out of the upper pack, and make a bypass loop so the coolant flow can continue to the rest of the car. Ford wanted $14,000 to replace my pack (I was also out of warranty), luckily Im doing an EV conversion and learned how to take apart a high voltage battery pack from a Nissan Leaf, so the FFE was fairly simple to do.

 

[scottt]

If you're out of warranty by only 4 months, call Ford yourself. I had a PT Cruiser that was just out of warranty. Power steering pump started leaking. Was going to be $1500 to repair. Called Chrysler, they said you pay $150, we'll pay the rest, and they did.

Can't hurt.

 

[mattbrown]

If you're out of warranty by only 4 months, call Ford yourself. I had a PT Cruiser that was just out of warranty. Power steering pump started leaking. Was going to be $1500 to repair. Called Chrysler, they said you pay $150, we'll pay the rest, and they did.

Can't hurt.

I have already contacted Ford directly and I am moving my way up through Ford customer service ladder hopefully it will bear fruit. It definitely doesn't hurt to try at this point.

Thanks for responding.

 

[mattbrown]

I had the exact same problem, and I did a write up on fixing mines recently. The leak causes an isolation fault rendering the pack useless until you go in remove the modules, clean all the leaked coolant out, remove heat exchangers (cooling plates) between each cell in each module, dry off the bus bars, wires, and components that got wet, and reassemble. When you reassemble, leave the heat exchangers, cooling lines, and cooling assembly out of the upper pack, and make a bypass loop so the coolant flow can continue to the rest of the car. Ford wanted $14,000 to replace my pack (I was also out of warranty), luckily Im doing an EV conversion and learned how to take apart a high voltage battery pack from a Nissan Leaf, so the FFE was fairly simple to do.

SkyGuy,

That is some impressive next level DIY work. I am not an electrical genius, but I know my way around basic wiring and electrical safety. I regularly work inside live 600V panels at work to diagnose controls issues on refrigeration equipment. I am going to pursue getting an exemption on my warranty first, but if that fails I will be considering your DIY fix. I read through your upper pack removal write up, did you do any sort of write up on reconditioning the upper pack? The basic concept sounds similar to repairing a water damaged phone, remove the moisture, clean anything that could be causing a short and reassemble.

Thanks for replying, and I may be in touch if I strike out with Ford corporate

 

[skyguy_6153]

I've finished the write up, check it out: http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4982

 

[Anti_Climax]

Matt - I wish you the best of luck dealing with Ford. If my attempts to get my MyFordMobile user data are any indication you're in for quite a ride.

And if it doesn't pan out, I'd encourage you to try a DIY fix if you're at all inclined. It's not likely to be easy, but it's certainly possible.

 

[benjaminrebert]

I just got off the phone with my cord dealer. I was given the stop safely now message and stopped immediately and all that. Towed it into dealer and same as you all. The tech told me that the battery coolant leaked. This leak is in the battery causing it to corrode terminals and make the battery fail. Full battery replacement is estimated $16,000. I am 2 months past the 8 year warranty so they will not cover it. Honestly there should be a recall if it is failing consistently like this. It was nice daily driver but im looking at calling it a loss unless I can find a battery for $2,000 somewhere used or a rebuild kit where I can clean off the corrosion and repair it myself since I am already without a warranty.

 

[Heima]

I call BS on behalf of the dealer. Coolant corroding terminals. Not likely.
If there was coolant in the battery, they could tell you how much drained out when they checked it.
To anyone who dismantled their battery because of coolant leaking, did you find the source of the leak?
Was the coolant leak at a pipe/hose fitting, along the length of a pipe or hose, at the junction of the pipe/hose and coolant panel, or somewhere on the coolant panel?
The only way I can image a coolant leak happening is from some idiot positively pressurizing the cooling system, to check for leaks.
However, I have seen micro pores in aluminum, that might cause a leak on a coolant panel, but I really doubt that was the cause.

So the SSN can be displayed when there is a loss of isolation. That loss can be caused by moisture, either from coolant, or from water in the battery pack.
There is the bulletin about the high voltage connectors on the lower battery pack. That issue occurred because they used a bare aluminum block to mount the connectors. The block easily corroded from salty roads in winter. The corrosion opened the gap between the high voltage connector and the aluminum. Water got in through the gap, that lowered isolation and set the SSN.

How many packs that have no real coolant leaks, had the above happen to them?

The dealers, just being lazy, say its a coolant leak and see dollar signs in their eyes.

A check for a coolant leak would be to perform a vacuum purge of the cooling system. Get it to a high vacuum, negative pressure, and then close the valve to do a leak down test. If vacuum pressure doesn't change over a long time, if you don't hear any buzzing from the cooling components, then there isn't a leak. Its not like the cooling system is pressurized like it is for an ICE vehicle.

If this methodology does discover a leak, it does not necessarily mean it is in the battery. There are plenty of places where a coolant leak can happen.

So lets say that there is a leak in the battery enclosure, for example, the connectors and corrosion I spoke of above. Why can't one loosen the connectors from the battery, open the drain plugs, and run some air through the enclosure to dry it out? Then close the drain plugs, put the connectors back in, seal them very well with RTV, silicone, or that tar stuff mentioned in the above bulletin, and be done with it? Maybe toss some silica gel into the battery to further dry it out.

I cannot help but think it is all a situation where nobody (the dealer) knows enough about the system to fix it.

Sorry if I seem like a ranting lunatic.

 

[Anti_Climax]

They aren't going to fix the battery in lieu of replacing it as a unit unless they absolutely have to - and it's not unique to Ford or any particular EV/Hybrid. The manufacturer doesn't have to develop processes and procedures that they need to distribute and train to and they can "simplify" the repair process treating it as a swappable assembly.

In this case I don't blame the dealerships. They get a troubleshooting script from the manufacturer that simply does not go into the battery as it's not classified as "serviceable" by the manufacturer. At that point the dealer would be responsible for figuring it out on their own with the mere hope of accomplishing a repair, with the likelihood of wrecking it in the process or getting themselves hurt.

Hell, Ford isn't even really the manufacturer for the pack, which isn't to say they don't have all the info they need to repair or re-manufacture them if they chose to. This is where DIY and independent repair have to take over. If nothing else, the more people that end up needing to do things like this the more insight there is for others later on.

 

[triangles]

I call BS on behalf of the dealer. Coolant corroding terminals. Not likely.
If there was coolant in the battery, they could tell you how much drained out when they checked it.
To anyone who dismantled their battery because of coolant leaking, did you find the source of the leak?
Was the coolant leak at a pipe/hose fitting, along the length of a pipe or hose, at the junction of the pipe/hose and coolant panel, or somewhere on the coolant panel?
The only way I can image a coolant leak happening is from some idiot positively pressurizing the cooling system, to check for leaks.
However, I have seen micro pores in aluminum, that might cause a leak on a coolant panel, but I really doubt that was the cause.

From what I have read about people with coolant in batteries. It is the cells that swell. This expansions pulls apart the connector of the coolant lines inside the battery causing the leak. I have no first hand experience so take this for what it is worth. Also if they told me it was coolant and my coolant reservoir was low/empty I wouldn't doubt that the missing coolant was in the battery.

 

[Anti_Climax]

If the cells are swelling the leak is a symptom of another problem and, at minimum, the pack would need to be remanufactured. I can see why they'd push for an assembly swap especially if it's likely to re-occur.

 

[user 5933]

So lets say that there is a leak in the battery enclosure, for example, the connectors and corrosion I spoke of above. Why can't one loosen the connectors from the battery, open the drain plugs, and run some air through the enclosure to dry it out? Then close the drain plugs, put the connectors back in, seal them very well with RTV, silicone, or that tar stuff mentioned in the above bulletin, and be done with it? Maybe toss some silica gel into the battery to further dry it out.

Having just pulled the cover off my battery pack, this is a lot of work. Getting it out and just opening the cover is hard, its VERY well sealed, lots of bolts and RTV sealing everything in. Getting any airflow without disassembly will be hard if not impossible. Plus you could have pockets of coolant stuck in between somewhere. Not saying that would never work, but I think it would have to be a very isolated leak and not much quantity of coolant for that plan to be effective long term. Then there is the issue of the leak itself...

Ford wants these cars to die and be forgotten. We have to remember these were compliance cars at best. They are very low production and barely even marketed. They have zero interest in actually helping us keep these going. Its my belief that the local dealer here just kept holding the car and offering expensive "fixes" to everything except the battery so I would run past the warranty date.