Is the heater/defroster a range killer?

[msmunger52]

I am seriously considering the Focus electric but am a little concerned over how much impact running the heater and/or defroster will have on the range. I know it is a problem with the 2012 Leaf.

 

[dwf123]

Range Anxiety???? The first thing you have to determine is your usage pattern. Every morning you are going to have 75-85 miles of range (maybe better depending on your driving techniques.) If you plan on driving more then 80 miles one way, each day, you are in trouble.

For example I drive 80 miles round trip on my commute. I drive to work and have 35-40 miles of range left. I can do all my work errands around town, go back to work, plug in and have 80 miles of range to go home. Get home have 35-40 miles to run errands, plug-in and have 80 miles available the next morning. The average American drives less then 40 miles each day. Think about your usage and see if it fits the model.

To answer your question - Yes the defroster will affect the range. Some days when I drive to work it has been raining - windshield wipers and headlights on, it is hot - AC on, I hit a lot of stop lights - accelerating out of the light cuts range. So when I get to work I might have used 5-6 miles less on my range. So instead of having 35-40 miles left to do errands I will have 28-32 miles left on the battery, still plenty...

It has not been cold so I have not used the heater but it has been hotter then beejeebees and I run the AC all the time. It is a great AC, works very well. I prestart the car with myfordmobile.com and it does not affect the range at all.

Range Anxiety is a real issue for alot of people, myself included. However, once I discovered my life style worked perfectly with the car, I started driving like I love to drive. I stopped worrying and really enjoyed the little hot rod. It is quick and zippy with great handling characteristics.

ps I bought this car in NY and my wife and I drove it home from NJ to RI - 186 miles. Nervous as hell, we only had to stop and charge 2 times.

 

[msmunger52]

dwf123,

Thanks for your informative reply.

I fit the "profile" for elect car. My commute is 20 miles one way. I usually use about 10 miles at lunch then come directly home for a total of 50 miles. When I run errands after work, they typically add under 5 miles. I do not have an opportunity to charge at work but should not need it. My wife has a Prius which is our extended travel car. I don't plan on taking the FFE out of the county.

From what I've read, use of the heater in the 2012 Leaf cuts range by 25 miles. That's what prompted my question about the FFE heater. Do you have any info re what technology is used for the FFE heater? e.g. ICE heater systems typically use a heater radiator. I'd like to know how the FFE heater/defroster works.

 

[Rwbill]

hi m,
you ask a couple of questions that I was very concerned about. I thought that battery power as used for heating and cooling would greatly reduce the range of the vehicle. I will travel 50 upwards of 60 miles on a day if I run to Target on the way home. After I read how it was done I went ahead and ordered a FFE as I thought I would have plenty of spare capacity. After reading the early comments that certainly appears to be the case for summer, using the A/C. I would certainly have expected a reduction of more than 5 or 6 miles, and even that can be reduced if the vehicle is plugged in for "pre conditioning" using household or grid power.

I don't think dwf or anyone has any experience yet in heating, unless dwf is just a masochist. The internal heating is done by a separate, electrical heater. This appears to be probably an electrical resistance heater of some sort which will definitely increase the consumption of capacity, higher amp consumption. Also using the rear window defroster in conjunction with the heater/windshield defroster will reduce the range. How much? I don't know, I don't think anyone has any experience with it yet, seeing as it's been 100 degrees outside. Again, if home, or if at work at a parking deck possibly you could use grid current to precondition the car, having the windows de-iced and the internal temperature up to 45 or 50 degrees before unplugging.

Do you have the link to the owners manual?

I have that .pdf saved and we could probably post an online link to the owners manual again.

EDIT. I meant to say also that the cabin A/C is used to cool the cabin and the high voltage battery, this active cooling of the main high voltage battery is a key feature that the Leaf does not have.

Good luck, mine is due in in late August now, just got the VIN and am excited about it.

 

[msmunger52]

RW,

I really appreciate your thoughts. I have looked at the owners manual and noticed how they stress pre-conditioning while on the grid and how AC/Heater and I guess defroster is coupled with the high voltage battery cooling/heater system. You suggest "The internal heating is done by a separate, electrical heater. This appears to be probably an electrical resistance heater of some sort . . . " Sounds reasonable to me. I would like to get a more definitive explanation from a technician who knows exactly how it works. Is the shop manual available?

I understand about summer & heater tests. I agree, until users attempt the heater and report the results it's impact on range will be unknown. I'm glad to hear so far that running of the AC does not seem to be a major hit . . . to the best of my recollection I don't remember use of AC hitting the Leaf range either. Nissan has stated they will be fixing their heater problem for the 2013 model.

That's very exciting you have a VIN! Will look forward to your posts when you have the vehicle in service.

 

[Evocus]

Also note that Ford uses the MyFordMobile App/website to allow you to setup "GO Times" where the car is prepared for use while still on the charger. This means heating or cooling to your desired temperature at the time you designate you want to leave. This reduces the power required from the battery once you are off the charger.

 

[Charged Up]

All things being equal, generating heat is a more energy intensive than cooling, which simply involves moving heat out of the air you want "cooled."

Although the heater in the FFE does have an electric compressor, it is not an electric resistance heater. The descriptions are vague but sounds like some kind of heat pump to me.

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/Ford_Allelectric_Vehicle.pdf

One of the things that reduces range in the cold, is not just generating heat for the cabin, but the battery itself is less effective if it is cold. Thus, preconditiong will be key, and one of the things to remember about preconditioning is that the battery has considerable thermal mass, so once you get it warm it will stay warm for a long time, and of course while in use it is generating heat.

The Nissan LEAF initially had nothing to heat the battery. And the range suffered accordingly. Nissan subsequently added resistive heating strips, but unlike the FFE Nissan does not use liquid cooling/heating so one wonders how effective that heat is distributed throughout the battery.

What region are you in?

Range will be reduced in Winter but certainly the FFE will perform better than the LEAF. If you can keep the car in a garage and if you can precondition the affects will be much smaller. I would guess we are talking 10 to 30 percent range reduction, but figuring out where you will be is dependent on many factors.

Given your 40 mile commute and 50 if you run errands, I do not think winter range will be an issue for you at all.

 

[msmunger52]

I live in San Diego and the climate is very mild. A great environment for Electric Vehicles. I'm not overly concerned about loss of range due to running the heater. I don't think we will really know the impact until owners start reporting their experiences which probably won't happen until this Fall/Winter.

I test drove an FFE again today - getting real close to deciding to buy.

 

[Rwbill]

I live in San Diego and the climate is very mild. A great environment for Electric Vehicles. I'm not overly concerned about loss of range due to running the heater. I don't think we will really know the impact until owners start reporting their experiences which probably won't happen until this Fall/Winter.

I test drove an FFE again today - getting real close to deciding to buy.

Does the power company give you a real off peak discount? Looks like that will be a real advantage for me here in Virginia, between 1-5 am charging at less than 6 cents per kWh. with the discount that dominion power gives for off off peak charging the FFE will save more money than I originally thought possible. Mine is being built tomorrow, Aug 6, allegedly.

 

[msmunger52]

.06 is a bargain by CA standards.

There are 4 different EV Time of Use (TOU) residential electric rates for San Diego (SDG&E):

Super Off Peak Off Peak Peak Off Peak
Midnight - 5am 5am - 12pm 12pm - 6pm 6pm- Midnight
0.145 0.167 0.258 0.167

In my situation the best approach is to have a second meter installed at my home and put it on the TOU program. Will then schedule the car to be charged between Midnight and 5am to get the lowest rate. Only the car charger will be on the TOU rate.

The rest of the home is on a separate meter with another rate program which escalates the charges in Tiers as you use more electricity. It would be bad to put the EV on this meter, the extra usage would kick my bill into the higher rate tiers.

Here in CA the EV Project is active. They will give you a Blnk charger and pay most of the install cost for you. SDG&E will put in the TOU meter for a nominal fee. In return you allow the EV Project to monitor your EV electricity usage habits. The only problem is that the EV Project allows Leaf and Volt owners to participate but not FEE (or any other EV for that matter). Don't know why Ford missed hooking up with this program. It is a real hit to me I'll have to fund all costs for the charger myself if I get the FFE.

 

[Rwbill]

Thanks for the info. It's a little hit and miss everywhere. Each of us has to dig around and apply to our own situation.

 

[Rwbill]

So, I'm pretty much All In. Dominion Power replaced my meter and put me on the EV Plus Whole House plan, for better or for worse. This should work okay as long as I don't have much running from 1 pm to 7 pm, which I don't. Right now the AC runs a little even when set at 80 - 82, but hopefully these 90 - 100 degree days will slacken off as it's almost September. This meter collects usage in 30 minute increments, with 0100-0500 billed at 5.+ cents per KWh, a perfect time to charge the Ford Focus Electric on Level 2. In fact, all time slots except the afternoon are billed below average. Running the electric clothes dryer after 10 pm is super cheap, but I'm not staying up til 1 am for the super duper cheap rate just to dry clothes. I'd probably be up watching reruns of King of Queens or Seinfeld, but no energy left to fold laundry.

I filled up my 4 cyl Saturn Vue yesterday, get about 28 mpg with it, staring at $50 on the pump, and wondered how many more of those I would see, as my FFE was supposedly manufactured earlier this week.

This is the new meter for the EV Plus Whole House plan.

This is a close up of the label at the bottom.

They installed it by mid morning and by 7 pm I had 15 KWH used already. Not sure what that little logo that looks like a light bulb with the "A" is. Automatic, or something. I have a fairly large house, once had 5 kids living in it, have been spreadsheeting my KWH per month for several years. July - August and Dec - Feb are peak, maybe 1300-1500 KWH, spring and lovely fall it drops to 600 - 800 KWh.

The display alternates every 3 seconds or so between this generic look showing all the icons...

And this view showing KWh used.

Next step, Tuesday meet with the Best Buy contract electrician to survey my electric panel and where I'd like the Leviton charger placed.

Next step, install the charger.

Next step, delivery from Michigan Assembly Plant to Richmond, VA.

Next step, drive home, plug it in, then drive!

Why the Leviton charger? Because my brain was too fried taking this all in so I figured I couldn't go too wrong.

 

[msmunger52]

Great info. Look forward to hearing about your experience with Best Buy and the EVSE install.

 

[j79guy]

Back to the OP, is the heater a range killer? Certainly, but it depends on where you live and how severe your driving conditions. Up here in Northern British Columbia, I don't skimp on the heat. For the price I paid for this car, I'm going to be comfortable, so the climate control gets set at 21C., the seat heaters and window defrosters are on. Im seeing about a 40% reduction in range, in comparison to ideal summer driving conditions, averaging 57mph on the highway. Right now, the weather daytime highs are in the -4 C. range. (27 F.)

Robin.

 

[msmunger52]

Wow, a 40% reduction! I"m fortunate living in a mild climate. It will be interesting to see the amount of reduction I get when it gets colder down here. Thanks for the info Robin.

 

[Hocus Focus]

I turned on the heater and also notices a big hit. Go to MyViee and configure the view to show power draw. The bar moves to 5+kW when the heater is on Hi compared to3-4kW to run max AC. Seat heat seems to draw off the 12V system as Insee a slight increase in the "Other" power usage. Bundle up in he cold if you need the range to avoid using the juice!

 

[Charged Up]

I turned on the heater and also notices a big hit. Go to MyViee and configure the view to show power draw. The bar moves to 5+kW when the heater is on Hi compared to3-4kW to run max AC. Seat heat seems to draw off the 12V system as Insee a slight increase in the "Other" power usage. Bundle up in he cold if you need the range to avoid using the juice!

Go where to show power draw? The only place I have found that you can see energy usage is in the "Trip" log, on the left DIC. However, Ford has set that up so you can NOT get an instantaneous look at energy usage. It runs the mi/wh up to 999 and then it comes down from there as you drive along. You can get a pretty good guess.

There is an energy usage screen but that shows it in 5 minute intervals. Not fine enough to determine exactly how much any one draw might be pulling.

 

[Rwbill]

We started discussing this in another thread, possibly even different forum. There is surfacing a noticeable reduction in range, and some of that even appears unavoidable as it may be going for conditioning the battery within a certain temperature range, as even if I kill the climate I still seem to be pulling 330 - 350 WHr per mile, and see a reduction in range. In the morning I drive about 20 miles and see a reduction in range of maybe 30 miles, down to 42 miles from 76 or 79.

But even this is not a big deal in my situation. If one could plug in the 110V cable after lunch or sometime and help top off or warm up the car before heading home, range won't usually be an issue.

The good news for you in San Diego is that this will rarely if ever be an issue. This extra pull did not start appearing here in Virginia until the temperatures got down well into the 40s at night with highs in the 50s, and some nights have been in the 30s so far. I noticed a slight up tick when some nights were in the 50s but by the end of the day it was pretty much back to normal and getting the normal 76+ mile range.

If your daily commute is 60 miles or less, or you have a place to plug in at work or your interim location during the day I would eliminate range and heating as a worry or consideration. This is a tremendous car, and I haven't bought any gas for my small Saturn SUV since September when I got this car.

It's a fairly sizable amount of money to lay out, but I now spend about $4-5 a week in electricity vs. $35-$40 in gasoline, which is 50 cents cheaper per gallon here in Virginia than in California.

Please let us know if you have any other questions.

 

[Rwbill]

Please take a look at the other topic "Real Time Look at Accessory Power Consumption", or something like that. Good photos on how to see your real time usage of battery power.

 

[j79guy]

-20 celcius here, my indicated range has been reduced by 60%. I park my car in a heated garage (+5 C.) and pre-heat the car on-plug for 5 minutes before leaving for work. At work, the car is kept on-plug, but parked outside. Cold plus ice radials are range killers. My commute is short, but I did not expect this big of a hit. Otherwise the car has been great in the snow and on the ice. (Once the Blizzaks were put on.)

Robin Sipe