need opinions

[hcsharp]

I hate to always be the wet blanket on FFE range from a relatively cold location, but...

Thank you for having the courage to say it. My wife often has to leave for work when it's 25 below zero F (-32C). It will be interesting to learn the range at that temp. You pretty much have to run heat and defrost in addition to the seat heater. About half of her commute is on the interstate. We're not sure if regen will disappear in the middle of her commute, or if she will have to plug it in at work (where they currently don't have chargers).

 

[Tim Jodice]

I hate to always be the wet blanket on FFE range from a relatively cold location, but...

Thank you for having the courage to say it. My wife often has to leave for work when it's 25 below zero F (-32C). It will be interesting to learn the range at that temp. You pretty much have to run heat and defrost in addition to the seat heater. About half of her commute is on the interstate. We're not sure if regen will disappear in the middle of her commute, or if she will have to plug it in at work (where they currently don't have chargers).

How far is her drive?

 

[WattsUp]

We're not sure if regen will disappear in the middle of her commute

What do you mean by this?

 

[jloucks]

I have read at least three times in this thread that the battery thermal controls will be active when connected to a level 2 charger.

...so not when attached to a basic 120v charger?

 

[Tim Jodice]

I have read at least three times in this thread that the battery thermal controls will be active when connected to a level 2 charger.

...so not when attached to a basic 120v charger?

Probably won't be much left to charge if it was on. Just a guess.

 

[WattsUp]

I have read at least three times in this thread that the battery thermal controls will be active when connected to a level 2 charger.

...so not when attached to a basic 120v charger?

The temperature management system may not kick in nearly as often when charging at Level 1 since the battery tends to stay cooler, which has lead some to believe the the system does not operate at all when charging at Level 1. However, there is evidence that the battery temperature management is indeed active when charging at either Level 1 or Level 2, and also that Level 1 charging stops while all the available external power is used to cool the battery, and resumes once the cooling cycle is complete. When charging at Level 2, on the other hand, charging doesn't completely stop (but may be slowed) when the temperature management system kicks in, which consumes only some of the available external power.

 

[hcsharp]

We're not sure if regen will disappear in the middle of her commute

What do you mean by this?

I don't know how strong the battery heating is while driving. To preserve range, it may not be as aggressive as it is while plugged in, if there's any heating at all. For that matter, I don't know if the battery heater while plugged in can overcome -25 F. The battery will self-heat itself to some degree while driving but will that be enough? So even if she leaves home with the pack at 38 F, it may not maintain that with 65 mph sub-zero air blasting the car. If the coldest cell falls below 36 (I'm guessing at this number, it has to be at least 32 and probably 38), it shuts off regen to prevent instant battery destruction.

My wife's commute is 21 miles one-way and she often takes small side trips on the way home for errands.

 

[Tim Jodice]

We're not sure if regen will disappear in the middle of her commute

What do you mean by this?

I don't know how strong the battery heating is while driving. To preserve range, it may not be as aggressive as it is while plugged in, if there's any heating at all. For that matter, I don't know if the battery heater while plugged in can overcome -25 F. The battery will self-heat itself to some degree while driving but will that be enough? So even if she leaves home with the pack at 38 F, it may not maintain that with 65 mph sub-zero air blasting the car. If the coldest cell falls below 36 (I'm guessing at this number, it has to be at least 32 and probably 38), it shuts off regen to prevent instant battery destruction.

My wife's commute is 21 miles one-way and she often takes small side trips on the way home for errands.

Say 30 miles with errands I can't see it taken that much power to maintain temp. Figure a high 300 wh/mi to heat the cabin and drive the car. Rounding up It takes 10kwh. I am assuming full charge, and the cold reduces available power to 75% that still leaves 4.5 kWh to heat the battery. Am not likely to see that cold of temperatures but I should see 0. I will post When I do. Regarding the cold air blasting the battery I would think with the concerns with temp They would not just leave the battery hanging our in the wind, even old 12 volt batteries on most cars and trucks have covers or are in boxes. I had a 93 ford diesel pick up that was from Canada and it even had battery heaters that were tied in to the block heater. Lastly if it is left plugged in the battery should be at temp when you started so all you need power for is to maintain temp and fight the cold.

 

[Fluke]

One thing that I saw last year during cold weather that was interesting was when the battery was (nearly) fully discharged the kWh reading from the trip meter was not nearly equal to the often quoted 19.5 kWh available capacity. The full to empty kWh was closer to 16 kWh under this condition. Not sure if this was due to battery heating not being accounted for or if the battery just cannot utilize the normal battery capacity when it is cold. The older software did not provide a battery charge percent at the time, so will have to check again this year to see what the charge percent is when the GOM thinks there is no more miles.

 

[Tim Jodice]

One thing that I saw last year during cold weather that was interesting was when the battery was (nearly) fully discharged the kWh reading from the trip meter was not nearly equal to the often quoted 19.5 kWh available capacity. The full to empty kWh was closer to 16 kWh under this condition. Not sure if this was due to battery heating not being accounted for or if the battery just cannot utilize the normal battery capacity when it is cold. The older software did not provide a battery charge percent at the time, so will have to check again this year to see what the charge percent is when the GOM thinks there is no more miles.

This is why I assumed 75% usable (14600 kw)

 

[dmen]

One thing that I saw last year during cold weather that was interesting was when the battery was (nearly) fully discharged the kWh reading from the trip meter was not nearly equal to the often quoted 19.5 kWh available capacity. The full to empty kWh was closer to 16 kWh under this condition. Not sure if this was due to battery heating not being accounted for or if the battery just cannot utilize the normal battery capacity when it is cold. The older software did not provide a battery charge percent at the time, so will have to check again this year to see what the charge percent is when the GOM thinks there is no more miles.

Yeah, I saw the same effect here in the midwest.
I don't have proof but I believe the battery heating energy is included in the trip meter numbers. My typical efficiency on my commute without cabin heating last winter when I bought the car was ~300Wh/mi. Over the summer, I was typically using <200Wh/mi without A/C. Now with winter temps arriving here, my efficiency is creeping back to the 250 Wh/mi range. Traffic's the same, route's the same, driver's the same, tire pressure's the same. So I have to assume that battery temp management is taking a small toll, and it's being reflected on my trip meter.

At subfreezing temps, the battery heating system apparently works well enough to keep the batteries warm enough to work, but not as warm as ideal. When colder than ideal, the batteries should still charge to the same capacity, but some of the stored energy in the batteries essentially gets wasted during discharge. So your percent display will still show 100% when full and 0% when empty, but you'll have used less than 19.5kWh in between.

 

[EVA]

Congratulations to you. You are pushing the envelope a little bit...no range anxiety for you!

Have fun!

A little about me, in addition to repairing car and aircraft I also fly them. It is not unusual to takeoff with 5 hrs of fuel and plan for a 4 hr flight to have 20% reserve. If weather or something comes up land sooner than planed. That is my plan with this car, reading on this forum average person is reporting 80+/- range. Works out to a 20% margin. I have 3 level 2 chargers on my route, provided I don't do anything stupid (80 mph heat on full windows down) I don't see any reason I won't make it every time. If the temps are extreme then so will my driving ( 50 mph no climate control). Why? The money I currently spend on fuel driving a 1998 diesel Mercedes with 376,000 will make the payment on this focus. The bonus, I get the privilege to drive a new car and should have a a few years of low maintenance.

I can't wait to hear your stories of driving this winter Tim. You are one tough guy. Thanks for that background.

 

[Tim Jodice]

Congratulations to you. You are pushing the envelope a little bit...no range anxiety for you!

Have fun!

A little about me, in addition to repairing car and aircraft I also fly them. It is not unusual to takeoff with 5 hrs of fuel and plan for a 4 hr flight to have 20% reserve. If weather or something comes up land sooner than planed. That is my plan with this car, reading on this forum average person is reporting 80+/- range. Works out to a 20% margin. I have 3 level 2 chargers on my route, provided I don't do anything stupid (80 mph heat on full windows down) I don't see any reason I won't make it every time. If the temps are extreme then so will my driving ( 50 mph no climate control). Why? The money I currently spend on fuel driving a 1998 diesel Mercedes with 376,000 will make the payment on this focus. The bonus, I get the privilege to drive a new car and should have a a few years of low maintenance.

I can't wait to hear your stories of driving this winter Tim. You are one tough guy. Thanks for that background.

I take delivery of the car Friday, I waited because I needed to put a service in my garage. For those of you do it yourself people it will save you about $1300. I was quoted from the dealer +/- $2000, here is how I did it. Bought a CC charger ($500) I have a 200 amp main panel I added a 100 amp subpanel to the garage. 50' 2 gauge wire a 8 breaker panel, 2 40 amp breakers, 1 20 amp breaker, 20 amp outlet, 40 amp outlet and housing. Total, $192. Why a 100 amp panel, if the car performs as advertised I will buy a second one for my wife and the difference in price between a 50 and 100 system $40 mostly in th cost of the wire. I am not an electrician so I had a friend inspect it. It was 30 degrees when I left my house this morning, let the adventure begin!

 

[hcsharp]

... For those of you do it yourself people it will save you about $1300. I was quoted from the dealer +/- $2000, here is how I did it. Bought a CC charger ($500) I have a 200 amp main panel I added a 100 amp subpanel to the garage. 50' 2 gauge wire a 8 breaker panel, 2 40 amp breakers, 1 20 amp breaker, 20 amp outlet, 40 amp outlet and housing. Total, $192. Why a 100 amp panel, if the car performs as advertised I will buy a second one for my wife and the difference in price between a 50 and 100 system $40 mostly in th cost of the wire. I am not an electrician so I had a friend inspect it. It was 30 degrees when I left my house this morning, let the adventure begin!

Nice work Tim! Now for the next time, you can save a lot more than that by building the EVSE yourself! Hint: It's not worth your time unless you REALLY like hacking! I built the charger for our FFE for less than $200 and it can deliver 40A (in case we want to use it with a more powerful car).

I'm glad you're looking forward to this winter as an adventure. I don't think you'll have much problem because your car is starting in a warm garage, unlike most of the rest of us who park in a cold garage or outside, or live where it's warm.

 

[Tim Jodice]

To finish up this thread I will be getting my car in December. I will report when I get it and how it does in the cold. 21F when I left my house this morning.

 

[michael]

Look into the BMW i3 with range extender. Might be better for you

 

[unplugged]

Look into the BMW i3 with range extender. Might be better for you

There is always a "better" car around the corner. The i3 won't be available until May or June 2014, and then only in limited markets: Los Angeles, San Francisco, Sacramento, San Diego, Austin and New York City, plus the suburban areas of New Jersey and Connecticut. By then, you might as well wait for the Mercedes B class electric. Also, the i3 will put you back at least $46,000 with the range extender. Try and pay the lease from fuel savings with that. And last, and certainly not least, it is butt ugly.

 

[EVA]

Oh wow that BMW i3 is ugly. I'm guessing if it sat next to a Pacer and a Gremlin, those cars would look nice.

 

[WattsUp]

Oh wow that BMW i3 is ugly. I'm guessing if it sat next to a Pacer and a Gremlin, those cars would look nice.

+1

omg, why does everyone's electric car have to look like a frog?

 

[hcsharp]

There is always a "better" car around the corner. The i3 won't be available until May or June 2014, and then only in limited markets: ... Try and pay the lease from fuel savings with that. And last, and certainly not least, it is butt ugly.

+1

It seems like you pay a big price for a range extender in any car. The Chevy Volt, for example, consumes almost 400 Wh/mi of electricity. Part of the reason for that is the extra weight of a gas motor, tank, and generator. I know everybody has different needs and likes, but for me I can't justify a choice that comes with many of the disadvantages of gas (extra maintenance) without all the benefits of pure electric, like low energy consumption.