can replace 23kw battery by new 33kw wiht same AC charger

[TareqAwad]

hi all

FFE FROM 2012 AT 2016 with 23kw battery , can replace old battery by 33kw for FFE 2017
with the same AC charger 6.6kw/h , and update system for read new batter and connect the same cool system in new 33kw ?

if we can not ( we can add 7.6kw battery for c-max in back care FFE with fan cool ?

 

[triangles]

I doubt anyone would be able to answer that for you. Nobody knows what the differences are between the two batteries. I think a new 33.5kWh battery would be very expensive. Supposedly the 33.5kWh battery is actually lighter than the 23kWh battery. There's no reason the old charger wouldn't work with the 33.5kWh battery. I would assume the charger has not changed but I don't know for sure. It kind of sounds like they just tweaked the old pack for weight savings and put in higher capacity cells that are roughly the same form factor but like anything on this topic, it's all just speculation. It sure would be interesting to see if you could just drop a 33.5kWh pack in place of the 23kWh pack.

 

[EVA]

Triangles - the 2017 have CCS - so the charger is different, it has to be to handle the higher power.

Absolutely correct about nobody knows if the battery would fit. You'd probably have to wait a year before somebody got their hands on one. The only reasonable way to buy a 2017 battery would be from a car that was in an accident and was a total loss from the insurance company. That would be really hard to find - just about like finding a battery for the pre-2017 cars in a junk yard or at auction.

 

[triangles]

Triangles - the 2017 have CCS - so the charger is different, it has to be to handle the higher power.

Unless my understanding of L3 charging is wrong, the onboard charger only handles L1 and L2 charging. So it absolutely could be the same charger. In L3 charging the battery is directly connected to a stationary high current charger. Kind of like how Sefs made his own L3 charger by ganging up several salvage FFE chargers and then used CHAdeMO to interface it with the FFE battery.

 

[EVA]

Triangles - the 2017 have CCS - so the charger is different, it has to be to handle the higher power.

Unless my understanding of L3 charging is wrong, the onboard charger only handles L1 and L2 charging. So it absolutely could be the same charger. In L3 charging the battery is directly connected to a stationary high current charger. Kind of like how Sefs made his own L3 charger by ganging up several salvage FFE chargers and then used CHAdeMO to interface it with the FFE battery.

Oh shoot, sorry Triangles, you are probably right. They added a second charger. That makes sense - it would be cheaper to do that then redesign the current charger.

Well, unless there was a CCS package Ford purchased that would replace the original charger. The only way to know for sure would be the shop manual / electrical diagram (or the parts list).

 

[cutler03gt]

I doubt anyone would be able to answer that for you. Nobody knows what the differences are between the two batteries. I think a new 33.5kWh battery would be very expensive. Supposedly the 33.5kWh battery is actually lighter than the 23kWh battery. There's no reason the old charger wouldn't work with the 33.5kWh battery. I would assume the charger has not changed but I don't know for sure. It kind of sounds like they just tweaked the old pack for weight savings and put in higher capacity cells that are roughly the same form factor but like anything on this topic, it's all just speculation. It sure would be interesting to see if you could just drop a 33.5kWh pack in place of the 23kWh pack.

Being that the Pre 2017 FFEs and the 2017 FFE now share the same battery pack part number, it's safe to say that it will be backward compatible physically. However, it's not safe to say that they would be software wise. Multiple modules would need to be updated by the dealer to account for the different capacity. I still haven't heard anything on that procedure since I posted this, so I'm not sure how involved it'll wind up being yet.

http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3672#p25814


You are also correct on the onboard charger. It is only involved with Level 1 and 2 charging. There's a new module under hood called the GFM2 (Generic Function Module 2) also called the EVCC (Electric Vehicle Communication Controller) that directs charging flow from the CCS connector to the battery, bypassing the onboard charger. Nothing to do with the new battery, just the new DC charging capability.

 

[triangles]

EVA I think you misunderstand how L3 charging works. Like with your tesla the chargers onboard the car handle all level 1 and level 2 charging. When you go to a super charger (L3) the super charger is the charger and the onboard charger does essentially nothing. Over simplified but basically a super charger is a bunch of the the onboard chargers ganged up and then directly connected to the tesla's battery.

The additional equipment on the FFE to enable CCS (L3) charging is not an additional charger it is basically a relay to directly connect the L3 charger to the FFE's battery. In addition there is some minor circuitry for the car to communicate to the L3 charger it is plugged into. I hope this helps instead of adding further confusion.

cutler03gt,
If they are physically compatible as the part numbers imply, it would probably still work even without any firmware updates to modules. I may be wrong but is my understanding that most battery related stuff determining battery SOC, etc. is done by measuring voltages and/or measuring battery internal resistance. Any battery related bits of code that have GOM like functions may be off or yield strange results but the car should still function normally and be able to use the whole increased battery capacity. If it isn't coded poorly after a few charge cycles the software should adapt to the new capacity.

Now before you get too excited that was a whole metric crap load of speculation on my part. Based mostly on my knowledge of industrial equipment that do some of the same stuff that the systems on the car does. Oh I'm also making the assumption that battery voltage is the same between the two packs. If it's not then that sure does throw a wrench into the works.

Who knows maybe one of us will will find out over the next few years if someone has a battery pack failure and their pack is replaced under warranty. Then again I wouldn't put it past Ford to software limit the new pack to emulate the old 23kWh pack.

 

[cutler03gt]

Who knows maybe one of us will will find out over the next few years if someone has a battery pack failure and their pack is replaced under warranty. Then again I wouldn't put it past Ford to software limit the new pack to emulate the old 23kWh pack.

Someone on the Facebook group for FFE Owners just had his battery fail in his 2013. They put in a 2017 battery under warranty. Ford is sending out a Field Service Engineer (my previous position) to the dealer to do the calibration updates. It looks like they haven't setup a method of doing so at the dealer level yet.

 

[jjsv1]

I saw that also. Talk about a best case scenario. Even if they only enable the pack to work at 23kwh.

 

[Omen87]

Who knows maybe one of us will will find out over the next few years if someone has a battery pack failure and their pack is replaced under warranty. Then again I wouldn't put it past Ford to software limit the new pack to emulate the old 23kWh pack.

Someone on the Facebook group for FFE Owners just had his battery fail in his 2013. They put in a 2017 battery under warranty. Ford is sending out a Field Service Engineer (my previous position) to the dealer to do the calibration updates. It looks like they haven't setup a method of doing so at the dealer level yet.

brb, googling how to sabotage lithium ion batteries without killing myself...









/s







...maybe

 

[triangles]

Someone on the Facebook group for FFE Owners just had his battery fail in his 2013. They put in a 2017 battery under warranty. Ford is sending out a Field Service Engineer (my previous position) to the dealer to do the calibration updates. It looks like they haven't setup a method of doing so at the dealer level yet.

There's a FFE facebook group? I guess I shouldn't be surprised but I am.

 

[cutler03gt]

Yeah "Ford Focus Electric Owners' Group". A whopping 283 members. Oddly, there's a "Ford Focus Electric Club - Jordan" with 3,883 members. Apparently they're popular in Jordan.

 

[Pearl]

There's a FFE facebook group? I guess I shouldn't be surprised but I am.

Ironically there is this one too.

https://www.facebook.com/ohio.ffe.owners/

perfect for us.

 

[TareqAwad]

Yeah "Ford Focus Electric Owners' Group". A whopping 283 members. Oddly, there's a "Ford Focus Electric Club - Jordan" with 3,883 members. Apparently they're popular in Jordan.

My group Ford Focus Electric clup jordan with 6000 members

 

[triangles]

My group Ford Focus Electric clup jordan with 6000 members

Have they even made 6000 FFEs? <sarcasm> :lol:

Ironically there is this one too.

https://www.facebook.com/ohio.ffe.owners/

perfect for us.

What!?!? I didn't know there was enough of us for our own group! :lol: I'm joining it right away.

Back to the topic of this thread. For anyone not on the Facebook group. The guy with the 2013 FFE with a new 2017 battery got his car back. He hasn't pushed it to see how far he can get but has done two short charge cycles and all indications are that he has the full capacity available and his pack is indeed the 33.5kWh pack. That's good news. Once my warranty is expired I may try to find a wrecked 2017 dirt cheap and attempt a DIY battery swap. Not likely that I'd actually do it but I can fantasize can't I?

 

[cutler03gt]

I recall sharing that the retail price for the HV battery set (includes upper and lower packs) was in the $8K range (maybe in another thread). Apparently it was an issue with purchasing, cataloging or someone... The catalog has recently been corrected to the appropriate price. $22K now :shock:

Wonder how long it's been at the wrong price and if any have even been sold at that price, that were out of warranty. Probably none, but who knows.

 

[triangles]

Maybe 8k is fords cost for the battery? The retail cost doesn't really matter since no FFE battery will be out of warranty until at least 2020. They probably just slapped 22k on there so no one would try to buy one and I'd bet having a 22k retail price gives them a good tax write off when they have to replace one under warranty. The 33.5kWh battery would be nice to have but it wouldn't really give me that much more useability of the car to be worth much. It would have to be at least 40kWh+ useable to be worth an upgrade and it would probably be too expensive at that point.

 

[EVA]

I recall sharing that the retail price for the HV battery set (includes upper and lower packs) was in the $8K range (maybe in another thread). Apparently it was an issue with purchasing, cataloging or someone... The catalog has recently been corrected to the appropriate price. $22K now :shock:

Wonder how long it's been at the wrong price and if any have even been sold at that price, that were out of warranty. Probably none, but who knows.

Somebody may have purchased a battery - car accident and needed a replacement. That would not be a warranty repair. On the other hand, if the rear of the car were that damaged, the car is probably totaled anyway - so probably no purchase.

I checked AutoNation parts - they still list this battery (BATTERY - 2016 FORD FOCUS (CM5Z10B759K) at $7700 (list $8200). No description of battery size.

At that site it isn't possible to find parts for a 2017 Ford Focus. The front end car selector doesn't have a 2017 Focus as an option to even choose.

http://parts.autonationfordwhitebearlake.com/ford/focus/cm5z10b759k/2016-year/electric-trim/electric-engine/electric-propulsion-system-cat/battery-scat/?part_name=battery

 

[cutler03gt]

I recall sharing that the retail price for the HV battery set (includes upper and lower packs) was in the $8K range (maybe in another thread). Apparently it was an issue with purchasing, cataloging or someone... The catalog has recently been corrected to the appropriate price. $22K now :shock:

Wonder how long it's been at the wrong price and if any have even been sold at that price, that were out of warranty. Probably none, but who knows.

Somebody may have purchased a battery - car accident and needed a replacement. That would not be a warranty repair. On the other hand, if the rear of the car were that damaged, the car is probably totaled anyway - so probably no purchase.

I checked AutoNation parts - they still list this battery (BATTERY - 2016 FORD FOCUS (CM5Z10B759K) at $7700 (list $8200). No description of battery size.

At that site it isn't possible to find parts for a 2017 Ford Focus. The front end car selector doesn't have a 2017 Focus as an option to even choose.

http://parts.autonationfordwhitebearlake.com/ford/focus/cm5z10b759k/2016-year/electric-trim/electric-engine/electric-propulsion-system-cat/battery-scat/?part_name=battery

I forgot to take note of the part# when I looked yesterday. I'll have to see what it is when I got back into work next week. I do remember verifying that the catalog listed the same part# for a 2016 and 2017 a couple months ago though, when I was confirming that the 33.5kWh pack was superseding the old 24kWh one.

 

[TareqAwad]

I recall sharing that the retail price for the HV battery set (includes upper and lower packs) was in the $8K range (maybe in another thread). Apparently it was an issue with purchasing, cataloging or someone... The catalog has recently been corrected to the appropriate price. $22K now :shock:

Wonder how long it's been at the wrong price and if any have even been sold at that price, that were out of warranty. Probably none, but who knows.

Somebody may have purchased a battery - car accident and needed a replacement. That would not be a warranty repair. On the other hand, if the rear of the car were that damaged, the car is probably totaled anyway - so probably no purchase.

I checked AutoNation parts - they still list this battery (BATTERY - 2016 FORD FOCUS (CM5Z10B759K) at $7700 (list $8200). No description of battery size.

At that site it isn't possible to find parts for a 2017 Ford Focus. The front end car selector doesn't have a 2017 Focus as an option to even choose.

http://parts.autonationfordwhitebearlake.com/ford/focus/cm5z10b759k/2016-year/electric-trim/electric-engine/electric-propulsion-system-cat/battery-scat/?part_name=battery

https://www.parts.com/index.cfm?fus...&diagram=FY2070&Title=-Focus-Electric-BATTERY