FFE buying noob, need help

[SyrinxTemple]

Hi all. I have been looking into getting a used EV for a couple months. My research has almost exclusively centered around Nissan LEAFs because they're relatively numerous in my area, while FFEs are scarce as hens teeth. Consequently I am very much up to speed on what to look for (and look out for) with LEAFs, clueless when it comes to FFEs. Well wouldn't you know, a 2014 FFE has come up on Craigslist locally. Could someone give me the cliff notes on red flags I should try to spot? Was there anything with that model year that marked them as avoidable? Nissan upgraded their battery design in April or 2013 - has Ford done anything similar so far? What is the mileage and time frame limits on the battery warranty?

Thanks so much in advance for the help. I like the look of the Focus a lot more, so I have my fingers crossed.

 

[spirilis]

The main thing about the FFE is that pre-2017, they didn't have any form of DC Fast Charging option. Plus the resistance heater (similar to LEAF S trim, but unlike LEAF SV/SL which has a heat pump) uses a lot of power and the smaller battery... it can be dicey if you drive a lot in cold weather.

FFE 2017 has 50% larger battery, SAE Combo fast charging, but otherwise it's the same.

Other thing to keep in mind is that the stock 12V battery tends to go bad by year 3, so expect a 12V battery replacement in the near future. The car won't "start" or will act finnicky and you may not be able to open the trunk (so don't keep your emergency jumpstart kit in the trunk).

I believe the Ford warranty for the "hybrid/electric drivetrain" components is 8yr/100K miles, but Ford doesn't have specific battery degradation guidance like Nissan does. On the other hand, the Fords have active Thermal Management, which the Leaf doesn't, so in theory (assuming the previous owner and owners in between kept the charger plugged in during any extreme hot or cold weather) the battery's degradation is less of an issue. In theory.

 

[SyrinxTemple]

That is super helpful information, thanks so much! I don't currently plan on doing any fast charging as I have a 14 mile round trip commute and my office has free charging stations.

This is probably a dumb question, but is the FFE's charging port a CHAdeMO connection?

 

[spirilis]

That is super helpful information, thanks so much! I don't currently plan on doing any fast charging as I have a 14 mile round trip commute and my office has free charging stations.

This is probably a dumb question, but is the FFE's charging port a CHAdeMO connection?

Nope CHAdeMO is the japanese standard used by Nissan, Mitsubishi et al. FFE 2017 uses CCS (SAE Combo).

SAE Combo is the American/Euro standard which extends J1772 by adding some large DC conductor lobes to the bottom of the AC connector.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System

 

[SyrinxTemple]

Wow, I was not kidding when I said that was a dumb question, because I thought CHAdeMO was what the L1/L2 plug was called. Now I see that J1772 is that plug and that CHAdeMO and CCS are the fast charging standards.

Thank you for all of your help this morning, spirilis! Vey much appreciated.

 

[NightHawk]

I leased a 2014 FFE for 3 years, just turned it in a couple months ago.
Be aware that the old 2G modem in these earlier models needs to be upgraded in order to work with modern cellular networks for the MyFordMobile app to function. On a used model, ask if all the available factory updates have been done such as the modem upgrade to 3G as well as a recent firmware update that reduces the 12v battery discharge issue.

The buy price at the end of my lease for the 2014 FFE was too high to consider over $15K.
I too monitor used FFE prices and see 2014's around $11K and recently even seen a 2015 and a 2016 FFE at dealers as certified used with 11K-15K or so mileage, for a few $K more. Probably the pre 2017 models are harder to sell for them now, since the 2017 increased the battery capacity significantly. I'll probably wait until 2017s are available used at a good price, also watching for eventually 2017 used Chevy Bolts.

 

[tkdbrusco]

Just curious why you aren't considering new? I just leased a 2017 FFE (w/leather) for the below price.

$270/mo, 36mo lease, 15k mi/year, $0 drive off. $9720 (in CA I get a $2500 rebate as well) = $7220

My residual buyout is $8080 if I chose to purchase it at the end of the lease. There will be tax on this so that makes it $8767.

So basically if I chose to own the car I'm at $15,987! Ok, I don't know about you, but I feel like that's a pretty ridiculous price for all that the 2017 FFE offers. Especially since I have an out in three years if I decide that I don't like it, or there are better options out there, or if the battery degrades.

 

[triangles]

From the battery/powertrain perspective there is virtually zero difference between a 2012 to 2016. If you live where it gets cold don't expect to have more than 50 miles range in winter. I personally have stretched my sub freezing range in my 2014 to 53 mi. with 15 mi. showing left on the Guess-o-meter taking extreme measures to get that range so it is possible to go farther in winter but not something you want to do on a daily basis. When brand new usable battery capacity is in the 18-19kWh range (summer) and FFE's with a few years and 20-40k miles on them have shown capacity degradation in extreme cases down to about 15kWh. I haven't tested my 2014 and I only have 15k miles on mine but I would guestimate my battery capacity is at about 17.5-18kWh based on my full charge Guess-o-meter readings which is something highly unreliable to guess current battery capacity off of. It's entirely possible I have simply stopped driving as efficiently as I used to and my perceived degradation is false or exaggerated. Typical summer power consumption is about 250Wh/mi and in winter it's 350Wh/mi. You can obviously do much better or worse but these numbers are in the ball park for normal driving.

As a bonus your 2014 still has some time on the 8 year battery warranty and if you are lucky enough to have it fail Ford will replace the 23kWh battery with the 115mi range 33.5 kWh battery as the older batteries are no longer available. Ford upgraded the battery pack for 2017 with higher density cells to get the higher capacity. The 12V system is the weak link on this car. The poor design relies on all the modules shutting down when they are told to and there is no data logging as to whether or not a particular module shuts down so if something fails intermittently and starts misbehaving (not turning off) there is absolutely no way to troubleshoot the problem unless the dealer can catch it in the act. Highly unlikely with an intermittent problem. My car was back and forth to the dealer chasing 12V Gremlins for 5 months this past summer. Basically it took 5 months for the intermittent problem to become an every time I turn the car off problem. At least this was all under the 3 year warranty so it didn't cost me anything but aggravation and being without a car. I would recommend getting a lithium Jump starter that fits in the glove box so when you have 12V problems you are not stranded. The 5 year road side assistance is nice but who wants to wait an hour plus for a jumpstart?

Oh I almost forgot. Get the VIN and you can put that in some web page to generate the Monroney sticker (window sticker). You'll have to google for it as I don't remember where that was. This will show you the original window sticker with all the applicable warranty information.

 

[scottt]

Hi all. I have been looking into getting a used EV for a couple months. My research has almost exclusively centered around Nissan LEAFs because they're relatively numerous in my area, while FFEs are scarce as hens teeth. Consequently I am very much up to speed on what to look for (and look out for) with LEAFs, clueless when it comes to FFEs. Well wouldn't you know, a 2014 FFE has come up on Craigslist locally. Could someone give me the cliff notes on red flags I should try to spot? Was there anything with that model year that marked them as avoidable? Nissan upgraded their battery design in April or 2013 - has Ford done anything similar so far? What is the mileage and time frame limits on the battery warranty?

Thanks so much in advance for the help. I like the look of the Focus a lot more, so I have my fingers crossed.

What's the price on the 2014?

 

[SyrinxTemple]

What's the price on the 2014?

They're asking 10K.

 

[NightHawk]

What's the price on the 2014?

They're asking 10K.

Thats pretty good if its in good condition and the mileage isn't too high. Might need new tires?

 

[TAMU_FFE]

What's the price on the 2014?

They're asking 10K.

You can get a brand new 2017 for about $14,000 after the tax credit. I think the range and equity position make it a better buy. I had mine transported from California to Texas for about $650

 

[scottt]

What's the price on the 2014?

They're asking 10K.

Too high.

 

[EVA]

Yeah, I'll agree that $10,000 is a little high for a 2014. $8-9,000 is a more fair price.

Honestly, mileage is irrelevant in these cars, they aren't driven very far. With the low range in the battery, you can't drive hundreds of miles a day - so they just can't accumulate a lot of miles. The battery isn't affected by mileage either. There is a lot of debate about battery degradation on this forum. Personally, with three FFE's under my belt, I think the degradation is a myth. Haven't seen that problem in any of my cars. Unlike the issues with Leafs that had real live big problems with battery degradation. And there is no way for you to figure out if the battery is degraded on a car you are about to buy (yes you could demand a draw down test, but if I were trying to sell you the car I'd jack the price up a grand for you being a pr..., and most likely walk away from selling you the car).

The only thing you really have to inspect is the tires. Make sure they are all four the same. And look at the tread depth. About the worst you'll have to spend is for a set of replacement tires - count about $500. And you might need a 12V battery - another $100. All the rest of the stuff mentioned is warranty / recall work that is free at a Ford dealership.

There really were no major bear traps in an FFE.

 

[tkdbrusco]

You can get a brand new 2017 for about $14,000 after the tax credit. I think the range and equity position make it a better buy. I had mine transported from California to Texas for about $650

I don't think you can find them that low. Well maybe close. When I was shopping for mine a few weeks ago, I literally called 20+ dealers within a 200 mi radius, and couldn't get that low on a purchase. Granted I was looking for the leather interior ($1080 extra), but the best I could do was get a dealer to match a price on a car from Sonoma County (which included a rebate that you could only get in Sonoma County). This avoided me the hassle of having to get my mom who lives up there to co-sign in order to get that price. Even at that, the purchase price wouldn't have been as good as the lease price. The best post tax credit purchase price I could muster was about $16800 (which included CA state $2500 rebate and $500 PG&E). The lease deal I did instead makes the car $15500 if I decide to buy it at lease end. I thought this was the better option since it gives me an out in case of battery degradation. I suppose if I didn't want the leather interior this would be $14400.

 

[triangles]

That's crazy that the lease price is cheaper than a buy price!?!?

 

[scottt]

You can get a brand new 2017 for about $14,000 after the tax credit. I think the range and equity position make it a better buy. I had mine transported from California to Texas for about $650

I don't think you can find them that low. Well maybe close. When I was shopping for mine a few weeks ago, I literally called 20+ dealers within a 200 mi radius, and couldn't get that low on a purchase. Granted I was looking for the leather interior ($1080 extra), but the best I could do was get a dealer to match a price on a car from Sonoma County (which included a rebate that you could only get in Sonoma County). This avoided me the hassle of having to get my mom who lives up there to co-sign in order to get that price. Even at that, the purchase price wouldn't have been as good as the lease price. The best post tax credit purchase price I could muster was about $16800 (which included CA state $2500 rebate and $500 PG&E). The lease deal I did instead makes the car $15500 if I decide to buy it at lease end. I thought this was the better option since it gives me an out in case of battery degradation. I suppose if I didn't want the leather interior this would be $14400.

Prices should be better than that. My 2015 (non leather) was $15,389.99 after rebates, VA tax, plates, stupid dealer $299 processing fee, and $7500 credit. VA does not have a state credit, so in CA you should be able to do better than that (yes, I know CA tax is twice VA's)

 

[tkdbrusco]

You can get a brand new 2017 for about $14,000 after the tax credit. I think the range and equity position make it a better buy. I had mine transported from California to Texas for about $650

I don't think you can find them that low. Well maybe close. When I was shopping for mine a few weeks ago, I literally called 20+ dealers within a 200 mi radius, and couldn't get that low on a purchase. Granted I was looking for the leather interior ($1080 extra), but the best I could do was get a dealer to match a price on a car from Sonoma County (which included a rebate that you could only get in Sonoma County). This avoided me the hassle of having to get my mom who lives up there to co-sign in order to get that price. Even at that, the purchase price wouldn't have been as good as the lease price. The best post tax credit purchase price I could muster was about $16800 (which included CA state $2500 rebate and $500 PG&E). The lease deal I did instead makes the car $15500 if I decide to buy it at lease end. I thought this was the better option since it gives me an out in case of battery degradation. I suppose if I didn't want the leather interior this would be $14400.

Prices should be better than that. My 2015 (non leather) was $15,389.99 after rebates, VA tax, plates, stupid dealer $299 processing fee, and $7500 credit. VA does not have a state credit, so in CA you should be able to do better than that (yes, I know CA tax is twice VA's)

it was the best I could do. Trusts me. I tried very hard and shopped e-Golf, Bolt, etc... Keep in mind that yours is a 2015 and doesn't have the larger pack. There may have been bigger incentives to move those and lower costs to manufacturing them. The same was true with the Leaf when they moved to the larger pack.

 

[NightHawk]

I see a private party used 2015 FFE listing in my area, but they want $15,500, has 29,518 mi!
They must not be aware of the proper price range, since also in my area a Ford dealer has a certified used 2015 FFE listed for $11,833 and it only has 14,121 mi.

 

[campfamily]

My local dealer has a 2016 with ~10,000 miles for $13K.

https://www.colleyford.com/inventory/Used-2016-Ford-Focus_Electric-Base-1FADP3R48GL315437/

Keith