Stop Safely Now Warning

[bribarn]

Let's remember that Ford is a publicly traded company, and that there are regulatory controls on the information they can release. They have to balance regulatory, market, customer relations, and safety considerations; I'm sure it's not an easy job.

Also, we are all early adopters of Ford's electric car technology, and I think it is unrealistic to expect perfection just yet. With only a little over 2,000 FFEs in service, it's not at all surprising to me that there are software issues coming up, and I won't be surprised by more over the next year or so. There are only so many scenarios that can be tested, and the only way you find out how any product really behaves is when large numbers are in daily use. I agree that the SSN situation is a major safety issue, and I think that Ford addressed it as such. It just takes a bit of time to diagnose, design and test a fix.

Yes, I would like for Ford to be more transparent as the FFE goes through its teething process, but I also understand the constraints they have to operate under. Although one may think that telling an owner something in an email is not like issuing a press release, the reality of our instant communications process is that the contents of that email can be in the press and all over the internet in a matter of minutes. So it's not surprising that their communications were vague until they were ready to announce the recall.

Let's also remember that our dealer service departments are caught between a rock and a hard place. They can only do what the Ford engineers tell them to - the FFE is a complicated beast and new tech to them as well. My dealer was a great advocate for me, especially when one considers that there are no error codes for them to work with, only our descriptions of what happened when we had SSN events. I worked with my dealer as a partner in the process, not an adversary. I persuaded them to look at the TSBs I read about here and gave them copies of the news stories on the issue as it developed. As they say, you get more flies with honey than with vinegar. My dealer's service department actually called me the day after the recall was issued to make an appointment for the fix. That's great customer service in my book.

I want to thank those on the forum who did so much work early on to investigate the issue and get the NHTSA ball rolling. That work got me to realize that my problem wasn't mine alone and got me to report my occurrences to NHTSA. I think the NHTSA reporting was a major force behind getting Ford to act as quickly as they could to fix the issue.

My hope is that no one ever has another SSN incident. Frankly, I was ready to start down the buyback path. If the problem isn't truly fixed, I still may. But I really do love my FFE, and I enjoy it immensely. If other glitches develop, I hope Ford continues to be responsive.

 

[hcsharp]

Let's remember that Ford is a publicly traded company, and that there are regulatory controls on the information they can release. They have to balance regulatory, market, customer relations, and safety considerations; I'm sure it's not an easy job.

I agree.

Also, we are all early adopters of Ford's electric car technology, and I think it is unrealistic to expect perfection just yet. With only a little over 2,000 FFEs in service, it's not at all surprising to me that there are software issues coming up, and I won't be surprised by more over the next year or so. ...

Hmmm... I'm not sure I agree with that. Certainly I didn't expect perfection, but Ford was an EV denier for many, many years when they could have been working on it. It was not unreasonable for me to expect them to get off their lazy butts and start developing this car A LOT sooner so they could have worked the bugs out. Instead, they waited until Tesla proved it could be done well, and even then they only committed meager resources to developing an EV. Then they had no choice but to rush into it at the last minute lest they look out of touch with the newest tech. Virtually every other EV that's come out has not had the same problems with firmware affecting safety in the first 2000 cars that Ford has had. Given all this, I don't think it's at all unrealistic to expect the car to be safer right from the start. As early adopters we might expect minor glitches, but not major safety issues.

Even now I think the only reason Ford is making an EV is because they don't want to get caught with nothing if EVs suddenly become quite popular (and we all know they will). They're basically testing and we're the subjects. They're testing the market and the tech. They're testing for dealer and service issues. That's why they're not marketing or advertising it yet.

 

[dmen]

Also, we are all early adopters of Ford's electric car technology, and I think it is unrealistic to expect perfection just yet...
There are only so many scenarios that can be tested, and the only way you find out how any product really behaves is when large numbers are in daily use. I agree that the SSN situation is a major safety issue, and I think that Ford addressed it as such. It just takes a bit of time to diagnose, design and test a fix.

Sure, minor annoyances like the degree of range loss in cold weather, or even the ease of accidentally depleting the 12v battery, are imperfections that can be forgiven. But any true safety issue has no excuse, no matter the age of the technology. It is NOT unrealistic to expect a new car not to lose power at any moment! This is automobile safety at its most basic- can it stop, can it go, can it maneuver. When a company is selling a potential death machine (any motor vehicle) it is incumbent upon that company to in fact test every conceivable scenario BEFORE bringing it to market.

Ford is FINALLY addressing it (if in fact this reprogram works). Look at page 1 of this thread. Dated Dec 2012. And it was not nearly the first reported event. This has been going on for over a year. To me that is not "a bit of time". NHTSA reports may have come later, but dealers were in conversation with Ford EV dept at the first occurrences. Did they need the rest of us to continue to trigger SSN to figure out where it was coming from? If Ford truly addressed this as the major safety issue it is, they would have put sales on hold while the issue was being diagnosed.

 

[Arthur]

Let's remember that Ford is a publicly traded company, and that there are regulatory controls on the information they can release.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what, exactly, ARE the "...regulatory controls on the information that... ...a publicly-traded company... ...can release...," publicly, regarding the causes of a safety issue, such as this one, and regarding the status of their efforts to resolve the issue?

I was under the impression that there were also some "regulatory controls," regarding the amount of safety risk that manufacturers could willfully (by neglect, in the interest of protecting their financial position) expose their customers to?

Excuse me for being naïve, but, since when did the concerns of shareholders, regarding value of their investments, supersede the concerns of customers, regarding the value of continuing to be alive?

 

[Dave]

My 2 cents:

I think Ford took too long to fix such a critical issue.

I also had my diesel F350 shut down once for no apparent reason during the 14 years I've owned it and the 254K miles I've driven it. It was because of a cam sensor that went bad and was later recalled by Ford. The cam sensor was critical enough to shut down the engine very similarly to the FFE SSN error.

Things happen, these are new cars, and cars are much more technical now but I still think Ford left FFE owners in the cold to long!

I hope this fix for the FFE really is the solution! I will certainly let everyone know if I get another SSN.

 

[purpleporsche]

So...what's the consensus for someone with almost 11K miles on an FFE and no SSN episodes? I'm ALWAYS apprehensive about fix'n something that ain't broken, and that apprehension increases exponentially when it comes to car dealerships.

 

[davideos]

So...what's the consensus for someone with almost 11K miles on an FFE and no SSN episodes? I'm ALWAYS apprehensive about fix'n something that ain't broken, and that apprehension increases exponentially when it comes to car dealerships.

That's a very good question. I agree with the "ain't broken" aspect. I have been reading the SSN thread for some time when at nearly 9000 miles, it finally happened to me 2 weeks ago.
The problem is that we don't know what the problem was. If it is due to age, then it is just a matter of time. If it is due to some sensor condition (temp / voltage / other status) then again, it may happen if you hit the same condition. If it is due to some electrical component variance at production, you might be ok.
Since we can only guess, you're probably better off taking it in for the update. And besides, I've noticed that the curved line in the LCD display about a half inch to the right of the speedometer is gone away. Not sure if 13C07 or recall 13S09 actually fixed that.

 

[Arthur]

So...what's the consensus for someone with almost 11K miles on an FFE and no SSN episodes? I'm ALWAYS apprehensive about fix'n something that ain't broken, and that apprehension increases exponentially when it comes to car dealerships.

I only saw the SSN message twice, in the 8 months/4200 miles that I have had my car. ...but it only TAKES once, in just the wrong circumstances, to get you killed.

This error could happen to any FFE owner, at any time. So, I would suggest that everyone get the recall performed, as soon as possible. There is no reason to believe that it will have any negative impact on the operation of your car, and it's just not worth the risk that you will continue to face, if you don't.

 

[GREG]

I have not had the SSN problem so far.

I wonder how many of the 2000 FFE's have ever had this problem. We know that about 33 have complained. Maybe 50 in total or 2.5%. That is not very many so it is hard to imagine what is going on. Will all 2000 FFE's eventually start getting the SSN? Is the SSN triggered by a change in electrical resistance in the wiring or battery in some strange combination?

I will wait for any "FIX" - and continue to watch this board for further reports by all the folks who have had troubles to see if the problem has truly gone away.

I can only imagine what the dilemma must have been for the Ford software engineers. I imagine they try to protect against a battery fire. A "voltage exceeded fault" suggests that the battery is on overload. To prevent the car from potentially catching on fire they do a "panic" SSN.

Does anyone know why such a "panic" shutdown was considered a reasonable safeguard? Could they not have given the warning and ten seconds later shutdown the power?

Just wondering...

 

[bribarn]

Let's remember that Ford is a publicly traded company, and that there are regulatory controls on the information they can release.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what, exactly, ARE the "...regulatory controls on the information that... ...a publicly-traded company... ...can release...," publicly, regarding the causes of a safety issue, such as this one, and regarding the status of their efforts to resolve the issue?

Excuse me for being naïve, but, since when did the concerns of shareholders, regarding value of their investments, supersede the concerns of customers, regarding the value of continuing to be alive?

The Securities and Exchange Commission regulates certain kinds of statements by publicly-traded companies, such as forward-looking statements, and requires regulatory filings like 8K statements if there is a material change that occurs to a company between quarterly filings. A potential safety issue can be considered a material change, and so a company has to be careful about what they say.

I absolutely believe that the highest duty is to safety and customers, but the SEC rules do impact what a company SAYS about an issue while it is in the investigative stage.

 

[purpleporsche]

Sorry...I just can't resist...is there really a town named Weed, California? I love it!

 

[GREG]

Yes!

We retired here from a 40 year career in LA. Love the rural aspect and views of Mount Shasta. A profane monastary experience with Nature. It's not for everyone. It's a bit of a "red-neck" population. But, hey, I'm a non conformist. You can purchase a tee shirt here labeled "I'm High On Weed - California."

http://www.gadling.com/2013/05/08/please-dont-smoke-or-steal-the-signs-in-weed-california/

So, why do you live where you live? I just can't help but to inquire.

 

[davideos]

I can only imagine what the dilemma must have been for the Ford software engineers. I imagine they try to protect against a battery fire. A "voltage exceeded fault" suggests that the battery is on overload. To prevent the car from potentially catching on fire they do a "panic" SSN.

Does anyone know why such a "panic" shutdown was considered a reasonable safeguard? Could they not have given the warning and ten seconds later shutdown the power?

Just wondering...

I think the problem was a mis-interpreted failure condition of some sort. Could be that a sensor delivered a split second of inaccuracy causing the software to make the wrong conclusion....I don't really know; however, when after shutting down and restarting and having no evidence of anything wrong, it is obvious in this case (like when it happened to me), the software is doing something wrong and needs to be fixed. I think that whoever wrote the software should have considered that shutting the car down for a safety situation is a safety situation itself and should not be considered lightly.

As for "ten seconds later", sure, I think that could have been done considering the error encountered. Say the relay failed that connects the battery to the motor. Obviously, there will be no power..."Stop Safely Now" would be a good thing to show...maybe even with an extra comment of "battery dead or disconnected". If a sensor indicated that the motor controller were getting too hot, then it seems reasonable that it could give an SSN with "reducing power due to controller overheating". At least this way it would give us a chance to actually "stop safely" and something to tell our service advisor.

Anyway, I would hope that Ford fixed the issue as well as put in better diagnostics.

 

[EVA]

In advance, my apologies to everybody that has had the Stop Safely Now problem. I'm certain it is terrible, surprising, and a major problem. I hope the recall Ford issued solves the problem once and for all.

I am confused by something. How is this any different from an ICE car stalling? They stall without warning. The engine dies, the car doesn't move or warn you that it will stop working; it just dies. And worse yet, there is no power steering and the brakes are incredibly difficult to apply. On the FFE the steering still works just fine, it is a little harder to turn, but not impossible. The brakes continue to work because there is a vacuum reservoir that has nothing to do with a turning engine. And there is a fail safe hydraulic system that still works when you press hard on the brakes - all cars do this.

I remember cars in the late 70's that did it all the time. Remember the lean burn carburators, early pollution controls, and vapor locks that caused cars to stall frequently. Not just from a standing start but in the middle of intersections and the car beginning to move or at speed.

When those cars stalled, you couldn't get them started sometimes for hours. And you never knew when they would stall.

So how is the FFE problem different?

 

[WattsUp]

I am confused by something. How is this any different from an ICE car stalling?

I suppose technically it's not "different", but an ICE car randomly stalling in the middle of freeway would also be a very serious defect. In any case, it's not the 70s anymore, it's the 2010s -- good grief, you're referring to the way cars were 40 years ago.

I don't know about you, but no ICE car that I've owned or driven in the last 26 years (as long as I have been driving) has randomly stalled while in motion. THAT is what makes the FFE stalling issue different.

 

[dmen]

I am confused by something. How is this any different from an ICE car stalling? They stall without warning. The engine dies, the car doesn't move or warn you that it will stop working; it just dies. And worse yet, there is no power steering and the brakes are incredibly difficult to apply. On the FFE the steering still works just fine, it is a little harder to turn, but not impossible. The brakes continue to work because there is a vacuum reservoir that has nothing to do with a turning engine. And there is a fail safe hydraulic system that still works when you press hard on the brakes - all cars do this.

I remember cars in the late 70's that did it all the time. Remember the lean burn carburators, early pollution controls, and vapor locks that caused cars to stall frequently. Not just from a standing start but in the middle of intersections and the car beginning to move or at speed.

When those cars stalled, you couldn't get them started sometimes for hours. And you never knew when they would stall.

So how is the FFE problem different?

Fair questions. Some thoughts:

1. Main difference is that this is a new vehicle. Any current model with 2-3% vehicles randomly stalling would be just as unacceptable. In fact I think referring to these events as sudden stalls or loss of power would have grabbed Ford's attention sooner. In interviews their spokespeople referred to SSN as equivalent to Check Engine months ago, clearly not seeing the full picture.

2. I've had one other car that stalled while in motion. In 1990s I drove a 1970 VW that would sometimes vaporlock in summer. It would not happen all of a sudden. It would kind of sputter for a minute before giving up. It sucked, but I had enough warning to get to the shoulder or better. Very different than the SSN experience.

3. FFE power steering is electronic, and I'm pretty sure it is powered by the Li batteries, so it is also difficult to steer when SSN occurs.

4. A gas car can be coasted if it stalls in motion. When SSN occurs at speed, it apparently causes rapid deceleration per case reports. Yes, the brakes work but if you aren't ready to brake yet, tough luck. Losing drive power is dangerous. Being forced to stop seems even more so.

 

[davideos]

no ICE car that I've owned or driven in the last 26 years (as long as I have been driving) has randomly stalled while in motion. THAT is what makes the FFE stalling issue different.

I have to agree.

In addition, for the FFE, there is no real problem and absolutely no warning. I'd imagine that a stalling ICE car would be similar to the FFE having a bad relay contact or a loose connection somewhere. If I had an old ICE car that had trouble idling and a propensity to stall, I wouldn't go on the freeway, I would require more distance before turning left with oncoming traffic, and I'd get my car fixed.

There is definitely a gray area...but for being a new car; I expect reliability. As an early adopter, I accept a quirk here or there, ok; but not a powertrain failure. Only if I accepted to be a "beta" tester with a free FFE, I would accept the problem as part of testing. This is just my personal feeling as I'm sure others have different thoughts as to the matter.

 

[jmueller065]

Note that Ford also recalled Diesel Ambulances because they could stall without warning
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2013/11/ford-f-series-ambulances-recalled-over-engine-stalling.html

Talk about life threatening situation! (Read carefully: They only recalled ambulances, but it can happen to any 6.7 L Diesel engine)...!!!

FFE power steering is electronic, and I'm pretty sure it is powered by the Li batteries, so it is also difficult to steer when SSN occurs.

Nope: The power steering in the FFE is 12V powered and is exactly the same power steering in the ICE Focus (yes the ICE Focus has electric power steering--it reduces power loss from the engine and thus increases fuel economy).
See here (scroll down to "Electric Power-Assisted Steering"): http://www.ford.com/cars/focus/features/Feature4/

 

[Susan]

There are so many threads on this topic in this forum. Please read this link particularly the most recent posting. http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=999
It sounds like a really frightening experience and really wish I did not lease 2! I am an early adopter but not willing to take this risk.

 

[unplugged]

There are so many threads on this topic in this forum. Please read this link particularly the most recent posting. http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=999

Hopefully, most people will post on this thread. The threads that are outliers just become lost and responses are less.

It sounds like a really frightening experience and really wish I did not lease 2! I am an early adopter but not willing to take this risk.

You are aware that the recall is supposed to fix the SSN issue? We are all waiting for responses from those who have received the update/recall to see if it actually works. This may help allay your fears.