150 mile range

[portable]

I would give anything to have a 150 mile range. when we leased our '13 FFE my wife was using it to go 20-25 miles a day to work. But after I changed jobs I started using it to go to work. I generally go 50-60 miles working as an heavy equipment operator, but can go as far as 75-80. depending on the job. In the summer months there was no problems what so ever. but now that the weather has cooled, I find myself pulsing the defrosters on and off. Driving with just the seat warmer on and constantly staring at the remaining miles. Ive returned home with 2 miles left in the batteries.
When we first got the car it would unplug from 83 to as much as 100 miles of charge. Now that the days are cooler if not downright cold, I'm seeing 65-72 miles when unplugged. Thats with everything shut off. I don't consider 35-40 miles one way an excessive commute . I just wish i could do it year round without freezing myself during the winter months. Ford should offer a 150 mile battery pack as an option. Especially when that 'hole"/pit area near the rear of the car mostly sits empty from it being not so handy to use. I would gladly pay an additional 5-6K for that option.
But , since we "leased" our FFE we will see how the range is on a replacement at end of the lease. If they haven't gotten better or offer a 150 mile range, Tesla should be offering there 200 mile pr. charge sedan by then(below 35K). When that day comes, they will not be able to make enough of them fast enough to fill orders. It will be like the I-phone was when it first came out. I hope Ford is dedicated to producing an electric car and not just offering a peace offering on a commonly produced body style. Tesla will be hard to compete with as they only produce electric powered vehicles. Don't get me wrong, I love our FFE. And I support buying american. I just don't think 50-60 miles per charge consistently, is quite enough to keep people from experiencing range anxiety. everybody has there own opinion, I just find it amazing that tesla picked 200 miles per charge as the next major release of a commuter vehicle .

 

[pjam3]

150 miles would be great. When you get around 60 miles, it means a lot of places become "can't use the EV today." I've driven up small hills and after about a mile, my EV loses about 5+ miles. The other issue is the charging stations. I went to a Blink station last night and it was at some office complex. So it was late and nobody was around, but there was also nothing in walking distance around. So i had to wait. Read a book , but still.

And even though it was supposed to be a Level 2 station, I was there for over an hour and i gained about 10 miles. I left my office with around 11 miles, got to the blink station with 9 miles, left the blink station about an hour and 15 minutes later with 20 miles. If you have a car that avgs about 60 miles of driving and it would take over 6 hours just to charge it on a Level 2 charger, that's a problem.

One issue I have is with people who keep saying Tesla is going to have this or that. Tesla has a $100K car. Maybe people haven't tried to buy one or know the realities, but I've seen plenty of people say "after rebates it's only.." except Tesla includes a lot of marketing BS in their pricing. That $7500 is already included. You can be cheap and wind up with an $85K car, but that's about as cheap as you'll get that damn car if you actually want to use it. So yeah, they keep saying they will build a $50K car, but their next model, the Model X, is going to be more expensive than the Model S. It's more like an SUV. It might get less than the S, but it'll have more room.

So the reality is, Tesla might have a $30K car in the year 2025, other than that, it's up to the big manufacturers. And Telsa now needs to start relying on actually selling their cars instead of making more money on Energy Credits they were getting from the Big Auto companies. Now that the big auto companies have started doing their own EV models, they don't need to pay Tesla for compliance. And we've already seen Tesla take a hit in revenue because of that. If you look at their numbers, they are the most popular EV, but they also don't have anything else to sell and they don't have any $20K car that millions of people are buying. I would love for Tesla to succeed, I just don't see a cheap car from them anytime soon, and maybe never. They might just be that niche car company that sells $100K cars.

 

[oilman]

Portable,

I was just going to create a new post to highlight the results of a new study that finds that 42% of all drivers in the US can meet all of their needs with a fully electric car, based on miles driven per day, number of passengers, and hauling requirements. In fact, over 69% driver fewer miles than the range provided by a car like the FFE.

http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/images/cv/EV-Survey-Infographic-fullsize.jpg

I do agree (and other studies have shown) that 150 miles of range seems to be the break point for most people. That provides enough cushion for the cold days and can get you to grandma’s house and back. Here’s hoping that all of your jobs are within 50 miles round trip!

Oilman

 

[portable]

Pjam3,
I have to disagree, Elon musk has never gone back on his word. He started producing electric cars the way he refereed to as reverse engineering. make the best electric car in the world at limited production #'s and see what you can change to make it better and see how its received by the public. The roadster didn't sell that well at all, but was an amazing schooling for the developing company. Albeit while he was mastering putting rockets into space (Space X) to supply the space station.
From the beginning he said he wanted to produce a roadster, then a sedan(car and drivers unanimous car of the year) an SUV and last but not least, an affordable sedan commuter(200 mile range) car for under 35K. The Model X will be out in the spring. lets see the awards that are showered upon that vehicle. He has hopes of bringing the
latter to us by 2015 or early 2016. But , I commend him on his fortitude in the face of all the nay-sayers and back stabbers of todays society. Not so different from the days of Nicloa Tesla, The name sake for his prized company. Give him the chance to prove you wrong, and you "WILL" be amazed !

 

[Astrand1]

Well I can address the issue with the blink chargers because I have noticed the same. All of the blink chargers that I have used appear to only support 3.3kw. So that is about 10 miles an hour. I much prefer the ChargePoint stations. They seem to all support 6.6kw charging. I really wanted to get a model S myself but just could not justify the monthly payment. I'm thinking in 3 yrs when my lease is up I will either buy the FFE or hopefully the used market for model S will be better and I can pick one up that way.

 

[davideos]

I did see a used "certified" Tesla roadster for sale on their site. It was a 2008 selling for $58k. Although I really like my FFE, I wonder if my decision would have been the same if that car was sitting next to the FFE ready for a test drive.

On another point, if Tesla did offer a $35k car after Federal rebate, I wonder if market demand will drive the price up anyway. I'm sure many people are awed by what Tesla has achieved and would be interested.

As for the real subject of this thread, it would be awesome if a range extender battery was offered. Even if it had to be buckled into the back seat or trunk. I'm sure there would be a bunch of issues such as weight distribution, braking distance, and maybe even crash testing....permanently integrated or not. 50mi is typically sufficient for me; however, there are occasions when an extra 50mi would get me where I want to go without driving 55 on the FWY.

 

[WattsUp]

And even though it was supposed to be a Level 2 station, I was there for over an hour and i gained about 10 miles.

Could have a been a low-current station. 208V at 15A is still Level 2, but will charge at around half the speed of 208V at 30A.

 

[michael]

http://www.plugincars.com/blink-charging-stations-get-current-turned-down-128028.html

There were problems with overheating, so Blink reduced their charging rate. I think economics might also have been involved. Agree...Chargepoint is preferable

 

[michael]

If Ford would offer increased range as an extra-cost option, I'd be very inclined to buy it. Even 120 miles is way better than 70-80

 

[WattsUp]

If Ford would offer increased range as an extra-cost option, I'd be very inclined to buy it. Even 120 miles is way better than 70-80

A version where the entire trunk area is filled with battery?

 

[davideos]

A version where the entire trunk area is filled with battery?

Maybe up front under the hood. I'm not sure how many KWhs you can shove up there, but there does seem to be quite a bit of room. The extra weight might even give a bit more traction to the front tires so my wheels wont slip on wet roads or when accellerating through a right turn. But alas, meeting a lithum battery up close just before it combusts on a front end collision might not go over well in crash tests....meaning, there may be reasons for not putting batteries there...or even additional ones in the boot.

 

[EVA]

Oh, yeah no, don't put batteries up front. After crashing an FFE, I love the crumple zone and have two sons that are alive today because of that crumple zone (and air bags of course).

I do agree on the range piece - 100 miles all the time is a sweet spot.

It is now in the single digits at night in Chicago area, the day time is around 20 degrees. The FFE now shows 58 miles on a full charge. And yep, I did a little extra errand the other day and came home with only 9 miles left. I think the total for that day was 50 miles of real driving. Yeah I ran the heater a little bit, but not that much. Have gone from 90 miles on a full charge to 58. That's a big old drop.

 

[pjam3]

I think the other problem is if the EV got 100 miles no matter what, then there research would make sense. But as people have seen, in cold weather it gets less miles, when I go up some small hills, it gets less miles. When you go on freeways it gets less miles. So yeah if you drive in warm weather on straight flat roads and go about 35 MPH you'll get 100 miles, but if you have to drive up hills, are in a place where it's cold in the winter, and need to use a freeway now and again, you're probably getting 60 miles.

Most people I know don't live right next to work. If they do, they live downtown someplace and don't even need a car.. So if you work 20+ miles from work, that's over 40 miles per day just on a standard commute. Yes that's way under 100 miles, but if people are getting only say 55 miles o avg, you are getting close to having major issues if there is a detour or any last minute errands.

As far as the Tesla Model S, I love the car, just couldn't come up with a valid reason why I'd spend over $1200 a month on a car. I hope they come up with a $35K car, but who knows. They were saying they'd have a car under $50K already and that hasn't happened. It cost more than they thought. And I admire what Mush has done, but he's also a guy with his hands in many jars. And he isn't a guy who sticks with a company for life. He usually sells them. I hope they get to that $35K model, but you can only pre-order a Model X, you can't officially order it yet and there isn't a timeframe for when you'd receive it. So it's nice they say it'll be available come April, but I doubt it'll be available to most people.

I mean if you order the Model S now, it can take up to two months to deliver it. So most people won't be seeing a Model X till summer next year, if then. They don't even have them on showroom floors. This is why I don't think the $35K car is coming anytime soon. The Model X is a bit different than the SUV, but it's still going to be a $100K+ car with similar features. For them to release a $35K car they will need to re-engineer how to build a cheaper model or they will just build a cheaper model that isn't that different than the Leaf or FFE.

I don't know what Ford is doing as they don't seem to care about EVs, but Nissan seems to want to push the Leaf, maybe not like Tesla, but by the time Tesla has a $35K model, the Leaf might be just as good. The Model S is an incredible EV because there is nothing else like it in the EV market. In a few years if the Model S is still one of those "wow" it's not exactly good for the EV market because it would mean nobody improved from where we are today.

The other factor is there are places in California where over 60 percent of people live in apartments and condos. We don't have a place to charge these cars. So we need to find charging stations. Or we need a car that'll get more than 60 miles. The Tesla is great because at 250 miles and a super charger that takes 30 minutes, you could pretty much never worry about running out. With the FFE and so on, when you don't have a charger available at home, it means you depend on the charging stations. And being there are Blitz everywhere and like 2 Chargepoint stations about 10 miles away, it just doesn't work to find some random station in an office park and charge it for 8 hours. or even 4.

This is why unless Tesla comes out with a $35K model, I don't see the Fords caring to invest much more in the EV market. They like to think 60 miles is good enough, except in a state where a lot of people are buying EVs, they don't comprehend that over 60 percent of the people don't live in homes with garages or areas where they can charge up for 10 hours every night.

 

[jmueller065]

I think the other problem is if the EV got 100 miles no matter what, then there research would make sense. But as people have seen, in cold weather it gets less miles, when I go up some small hills, it gets less miles. When you go on freeways it gets less miles. So yeah if you drive in warm weather on straight flat roads and go about 35 MPH you'll get 100 miles, but if you have to drive up hills, are in a place where it's cold in the winter, and need to use a freeway now and again, you're probably getting 60 miles.

What you're seeing here is how efficient an EV really is. Since an EV doesn't use nearly the energy that an ICE does for the same amount of distance the energy consumption for ancillary things becomes quite relevant (e.g. heat). The other issue here is that the FFE uses about the most inefficient way to heat the cabin (basically a wire that gets hot when you run current through it) that the power consumption differences between the motor and heating are very large!

As far as the Tesla Model S, I love the car, just couldn't come up with a valid reason why I'd spend over $1200 a month on a car. I hope they come up with a $35K car, but who knows. They were saying they'd have a car under $50K already and that hasn't happened. It cost more than they thought. And I admire what Mush has done, but he's also a guy with his hands in many jars. And he isn't a guy who sticks with a company for life. He usually sells them. I hope they get to that $35K model, but you can only pre-order a Model X, you can't officially order it yet and there isn't a timeframe for when you'd receive it. So it's nice they say it'll be available come April, but I doubt it'll be available to most people.

So far everything Tesla has done to date has been to a published plan (unfortunately I can't find it--in another topic someone had a link). Sure they've delayed a little once and a while but still stuck to their published plan.

I don't know what Ford is doing as they don't seem to care about EVs, but Nissan seems to want to push the Leaf, maybe not like Tesla, but by the time Tesla has a $35K model, the Leaf might be just as good. The Model S is an incredible EV because there is nothing else like it in the EV market. In a few years if the Model S is still one of those "wow" it's not exactly good for the EV market because it would mean nobody improved from where we are today.

You are correct, Ford's engineers have said as much (stuff like: "We don't expect to sell many Focus Electrics"). Ford is basically making the FFE because Magna showed them a prototype and then did like 99% of the work to design the thing.. So no they aren't invested in the FFE very much at all. But then they say stuff like this:
http://insideevs.com/ford-says-electric-is-one-option-under-consideration-for-redesigned-mustang/
In addition you also have to consider that the CARB requirements for zero-emission-vehicles start increasing by 2018. Thus each OEM is going to have to sell more and more ZEV's to satisfy California. This means that, going forward, Ford will have to have an EV of some sort to satisfy those laws.

 

[pjam3]

I think the other problem is if the EV got 100 miles no matter what, then there research would make sense. But as people have seen, in cold weather it gets less miles, when I go up some small hills, it gets less miles. When you go on freeways it gets less miles. So yeah if you drive in warm weather on straight flat roads and go about 35 MPH you'll get 100 miles, but if you have to drive up hills, are in a place where it's cold in the winter, and need to use a freeway now and again, you're probably getting 60 miles.

What you're seeing here is how efficient an EV really is. Since an EV doesn't use nearly the energy that an ICE does for the same amount of distance the energy consumption for ancillary things becomes quite relevant (e.g. heat). The other issue here is that the FFE uses about the most inefficient way to heat the cabin (basically a wire that gets hot when you run current through it) that the power consumption differences between the motor and heating are very large!

As far as the Tesla Model S, I love the car, just couldn't come up with a valid reason why I'd spend over $1200 a month on a car. I hope they come up with a $35K car, but who knows. They were saying they'd have a car under $50K already and that hasn't happened. It cost more than they thought. And I admire what Mush has done, but he's also a guy with his hands in many jars. And he isn't a guy who sticks with a company for life. He usually sells them. I hope they get to that $35K model, but you can only pre-order a Model X, you can't officially order it yet and there isn't a timeframe for when you'd receive it. So it's nice they say it'll be available come April, but I doubt it'll be available to most people.

So far everything Tesla has done to date has been to a published plan (unfortunately I can't find it--in another topic someone had a link). Sure they've delayed a little once and a while but still stuck to their published plan.

I don't know what Ford is doing as they don't seem to care about EVs, but Nissan seems to want to push the Leaf, maybe not like Tesla, but by the time Tesla has a $35K model, the Leaf might be just as good. The Model S is an incredible EV because there is nothing else like it in the EV market. In a few years if the Model S is still one of those "wow" it's not exactly good for the EV market because it would mean nobody improved from where we are today.

You are correct, Ford's engineers have said as much (stuff like: "We don't expect to sell many Focus Electrics"). Ford is basically making the FFE because Magna showed them a prototype and then did like 99% of the work to design the thing.. So no they aren't invested in the FFE very much at all. But then they say stuff like this:
http://insideevs.com/ford-says-electric-is-one-option-under-consideration-for-redesigned-mustang/
In addition you also have to consider that the CARB requirements for zero-emission-vehicles start increasing by 2018. Thus each OEM is going to have to sell more and more ZEV's to satisfy California. This means that, going forward, Ford will have to have an EV of some sort to satisfy those laws.

The problem with this theory, as I live in California, is they say a lot of things, want a lot of things, but don't realize who actually lives in the state. There has been a conversation around giving EVs for poor people. In a perfect world this makes sense, but in a world where over 60 percent of people live in apartments, condos, etc that becomes a huge problem for an EV. When you can't charge the car every night, you have a car that will just sit. BLink and Chargepoint and so on were supposed to install something like 12K charging stations. They didn't come close and Blink went bankrupt. And if you go to a Blink Charging station these days, it'll probably take you 8 hours to charge.

Taking 8 hours to charge at home is just one of those, get home from work, do some chores, plug the car in, go to bed. And you wake up the next morning with a fully charged car. When you can't charge at home, it means you you have to wait at some random station for 4 hours just to get half charged.

The other EV issue is the infrastructure. Gas stations are every few miles and take a few minutes to fill up. EV charging stations are not everywhere and many times some of them dont' work, broke and were never fixed, or take 8 hours to charge. And there just aren't many people driving EVs to begin with. Once you start to get into a 10-20 percent market, where do people actually charge? You can't have 3 charging stations that take 4-8 hours. Especially in places where over 60 percent of people live in apartments or condos where you can't charge at night.

The entire infrastructure needs to improve as do the EV cars themselves. 30 minute chargers and 150+ miles will be needed in places like California, otherwise it'll just be a bunch of people buying a $100K Tesla.

 

[jmueller065]

According to this data:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0989.pdf

Over 60 percent of the US population lives in single family residences (and CA's fraction is 58 percent live in single family residences).

The entire infrastructure needs to improve as do the EV cars themselves. 30 minute chargers and 150+ miles will be needed in places like California, otherwise it'll just be a bunch of people buying a $100K Tesla.

It will given time. At no point in modern history has technology reverted back to a "lesser" state...Technology improves as it always has...

 

[Josephus]

Just a thought, a larger range "summer" battery will have a larger cold range defecit. 150 summer range might equal 103 winter (31.25% loss).

Here's another thought. Wish that my manipulating the heat/HVAC didn't affect my butterfly score. There's got to be a way to compute it so that it bases it solely on driving style, not remaining range. I shouldn't have to freeze to enjoy the darn blue tribute to microsoft. Just saying.

The prospect of a longer range in the near future is the PRIMARY reason we leased.

Regular commutes are easy. It's those days where we need to do three or more legs that are tough, but not impossible. Home to Airport to Hotel back to Home. Those require extra planning and charging.

 

[pjam3]

According to this data:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0989.pdf

Over 60 percent of the US population lives in single family residences (and CA's fraction is 58 percent live in single family residences).

The entire infrastructure needs to improve as do the EV cars themselves. 30 minute chargers and 150+ miles will be needed in places like California, otherwise it'll just be a bunch of people buying a $100K Tesla.

It will given time. At no point in modern history has technology reverted back to a "lesser" state...Technology improves as it always has...

In many places in California, it's over 50 percent in some places. And many of these companies are pushing EV because of the laws in California, a place where over half the population don't live in or own homes. So many people can't charge at night.

Yeah if you live in the midwest where these companies aren't even marketing EVs that much, you might own a home. But most people aren't buying EVs either. I mean in San diego there are over 2,000 EVs on the highways. I'm sure there are just as many , if not more, in San Fran and the Bay Area. And if you look at places like NYC, there are more renters than owners. Or if you own a condo in a city, it' s not like you can charge it on the street or in a carport.

If the infrastructure doesn't improve and the cars don't get more miles, the EVs will be a nice little toy that most people never buy. And EVs aren't exactly a new concept. It's just they've been kept quiet all these years. ANd honestly, it doens't seem like many of these companies care to market them as it is. They just sell some hybrid with a EV part that gets them 15 miles and then charge 10K extra. They are marketing those cars far more than the EVs.

 

[jstack6]

The KIA Soul Electric will have about 120 mile range. Or wait for the late 2015 Tesla Gen III with 200 mile range and cost of $35K before incentives.

I don't expect FORD or Nissan or anyone else to have 150 mile range until 2016 or later.

OR if you drive nice and have long downhills like these FFE you can get 800+ miles on a charge


Leaderboard: Top 10 drivers in Region 1 (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA)
Janet's World Saver 830 miles 1st
Flash 557 miles 2nd
Garret's FFE 531 miles 3rd
Chris EV 493 miles 4th
SF Silver Sparky 471 miles 5th
Juani's FFE 426 miles 6th
SuperFocus 419 miles 7 th

 

[unplugged]

If Ford would offer increased range as an extra-cost option, I'd be very inclined to buy it. Even 120 miles is way better than 70-80

A version where the entire trunk area is filled with battery?

Or at least the "grocery" space where the Styrofoam box is located.